Shannon Nash is a chief financial officer, board director, investor, attorney, filmmaker, and CPA. She sits on the boards of Net Scout systems, Lazy Dog restaurants, and Sofi Bank, and most recently was CFO at Wing, the Alphabet-owned drone delivery company, and one of the hottest companies in the US. Here, she reveals the secrets FP&A professionals need to know about presenting to the Board and how to turn numbers into a narrative to advance to CFO and beyond
- Explaining the power of the Board to shape a company’s strategy
- The finance of film-making and my experience making a major new documentary
- The power of FP&A in securing $150 million in funding at Reputation.com
- Presenting to boards -what drives us crazy
- How improv training unexpectedly revolutionized her executive communication style
Connect with Shannon on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonknash
Watch On Board documentary: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/onboardthefilm
Full transcript
Glenn Hopper:
Welcome to FP&A Today, I’m your host, Glenn Hopper. Today I’m excited to welcome Shannon Nash to the show. Shannon is a dynamic finance leader, public company, board director, investor attorney, and CPA with over 25 years of experience across finance, operations, and governance. Most recently, she served as CFO at Wing Alphabet’s innovative drone delivery subsidiary. Shannon previously led finance as CF o@reputation.com, guiding the company through a major growth phase, including a $150 million fundraising round beyond finance. Shannon is also an award-winning filmmaker and a passionate advocate for storytelling. Her latest film On Board explores the journeys of black women in corporate boardrooms. Shannon joins us today to discuss her remarkable career, how fp and a teams can strengthen their strategic impact, and how embracing diversity, storytelling and technology positions finance professionals for success. Shannon, welcome to the show.
Shannon Nash:
Oh, Glenn, thanks so much for having me. I’ve been really looking forward to doing this podcast, especially, I know we’re gonna dive into the strategic power of FP&A, which I could talk about all day. So thanks for having me.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, I’m so excited. You’ve done so many things, like I, yeah, obviously, yes. This is fp NA today. I want to dive in to fp NA, but I, we’ve gotta talk about all this other stuff too. Okay,
Shannon Nash:
Let’s do it.
Glenn Hopper:
Just looking at your, your background, I mean, your career is really remarkable because not only because you’ve served as CFO at, um, innovative tech companies like Wing, but you’ve been an attorney, a CPA, a public company, board director, investor advocate for diversity and inclusion, and a rare, you know, one-off from all this that some people might think doesn’t fit is the whole film maker bit, but, we’ll, we’ll talk about that later, <laugh>. But as you look back at your career and kind of think about where you are, how do you describe yourself now and kind of going through that path and what’s your mission that’s been kind of guiding you through all this?
Shannon Nash:
The common thread is that I’m, I’m a builder. Like I like to build things. And so whatever’s interesting to me, I dive into it and try to think about how do I build it and make meaningful impact that whatever that is, it starts with a, a strong foundation. Um, and so as I’m talking and counseling, um, younger students, I give back a lot to my alma mater at the University of Virginia. Um, the undergrad business school, I talked to a lot of students there, mentor them. I, what I really talk about is get a really good foundation. For me, it was accounting, it could be finance, could be marketing, whatever it is, get a very good foundation because what that’ll allow you to do is to go out there and figure out what are your passions, what drives you, and then help build and scale those things.
And so you could have told me many, many moons ago that by getting a CPA, I would get exposed to all of these various industries because one thing every industry needs is, you know, finance, you would’ve told me that would lead into all these other interests and career paths. I don’t, I don’t think I actually appreciated it at the time, but now I’m explaining to people, no, gone. Are there days, I know you remember Glen, where when you thought about, oh, what do you do as a c as a CPA for 20 years? Well, you’re in like a back room with your, like, I’m dating myself, pocket protector and your calculator, and you’re just like a necessary evil. Gone are those days. I mean, really, the positions that we play are instrumental to really every industry and every business. And so for me, it’s, the thread has been just being able to take that salt foundation and help companies scale, drive value, and just really lead kind of that next, you know, generation of what’s the next thing. So that, that’s been the common thread.
Glenn Hopper:
The combination of CPA and law. I mean, that’s like, that’s a, that gives you such a broad foundation and a different, I mean, it’s two lenses to look through the business. I mean, I imagine even in FP&A, I mean, law probably still has an impact and influence in your thought process there.
Shannon Nash:
Yeah. You know, is you definitely don’t turn it off. I, I’m, I mean, what I will definitely say that, that, um, what, not only law school, but then practicing law for a number of years, what it helps you do is really hone in your critical thinking skills. And at the end of the day, that’s what I think is super important for any of these roles, especially in fp and a. It’s not the ability to do the forecasting, it’s the ability to take that right and be a critical thinker and then do something with it, like execute on it. I definitely know that the legal training was super helpful for me in, in those roles.
Glenn Hopper:
That’s interesting. For me, before I came to finance, I was a journalist with journalism. It, I think that that, and I, I took it for granted for years until people started talking about it in the industry. It’s, oh, that actually made it so that I understood accuracy, brevity, clarity, the sort of the reverse, you know, the pyramid of, of how you, uh, get information across and everything. And it’s, it is interesting how all of the stuff that we do molds who we are down the road. And that’s why your, your broad careers is so fascinating. We’ll walk through the career a little bit more, but after all that, what are, what’s your main focus today? What are you, what are you doing today?
Shannon Nash:
Yeah, so I’ve been able to take, you know, like you said, the 25 plus years of, you know, starting out as a professional service advisor. So really understanding how you help advise a client and going from client to client to situation to situation, to going in-house to to companies. And working my way up the corporate America, um, ladder, I’ve been able to take all of those experiences, my operational experiences and turn that into something I’m super passionate about, which is board service. And again, if you go back 25 years, one of the things when you are aspiring to, you know, what your career is going to look like, I don’t know if people really talk about what boards do and why that’s important. So that’s part of, we’ll get into it, but that’s part of my mission is to make sure that more, especially younger people are exposed to this as an opportunity, because serving on the board has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my entire career.
’cause you’re really helping to shape, to, to, to shape the strategy of where a company is going. And ultimately, you know, you’re working at the top levels because you’re working with all of the C-suite, you’re working with, um, brilliant, you know, strategic minds on the board. And it’s all about creating shareholder value. It’s bringing together all of those skill sets and taking it to that next level. And so I serve on the board of Net Scout Systems, which is a publicly traded, um, security assurances, cybersecurity tech company. I serve on the board of SoFi Bank, which is a FinTech, and then I serve on the board of a restaurant chain, um, that’s a regional restaurant team called, called Lazy Dog Restaurants, which is, may seem extremely different than my other boards ’cause it’s not tech, but there’s, there is tech in restaurants, believe it or not, <laugh>.
Um, but also it’s just like, it’s a fun way to round out my experiences in terms of board service. And at the same time, as we talked about in the beginning of this podcast, it just goes to show that having that foundation, having that solid foundation and governance background allows you to go to multiple industries. So I’m doing a lot of that. And then I’m also, you and I have talked about this working on a leadership podcast that, you know, hopefully I will be rolling out later this year. So really my thought leadership is also the next thing I’m working on. And then I’m, I’m an investor limited partner and a couple of funds. And so, um, helping portfolio companies scale and doing some advisory work. So it’s, it’s just a fun time in life.
Glenn Hopper:
It just seems like when you find something you’re passionate about and sink your teeth into it, you go all in on it. And so, you know, your passion and talking about being on these boards comes through, but comes really comes through. And that you’ve made a, a documentary film about this with Onboard Yeah. That highlights the rise of black women in corporate board rooms. And I’m just wondering like, which serving the boards and making the movie and, you know, how, which, which came first and, and really what inspired you to take on the project and, and what are the messages that you hope to get across in it?
Shannon Nash:
Well, I had made movies before and one of my, my earlier, um, CFO roles was I was CFO of a small production company. And I had, I’d gotten also the chance to, um, run company for, um, the, um, iconic Debbie Allen. And so I knew a lot about the industry. Like I knew if, you know how to, I always tell people, if you know how to raise money in film and entertainment, I’ll take you every day because that is so much harder than raising money in tech <laugh> so much harder. And I had had to do that. So I knew enough about how you put together like a, a project and how you make money off of it, quite frankly, or, or how you would at least, um, get it made in a way that makes sense. I had been fortunate enough, there was an organization that was started by a woman named Marlene Sanil and Robin Washington called Black Women on Boards where they, and they didn’t start as an organization, they really just started as, as a way they themselves were what’s called o over boarded, meaning they were on a lot of boards, couldn’t be on new boards, but kept getting the calls.
And they just didn’t, they just wanted to make sure that all these other women that they knew were qualified to be on boards got the opportunities as well. And so they, they put together a zoom along with a VC firm called a Sapphire Ventures, this woman named Elizabeth, um, Patterson. And she had portfolio companies that were looking for board members, and they thought, let’s just do this Zoom and introduce these women and, and if there are opportunities, we wanna at least, um, recommend them. So it just started that simple. But you know what the power of, of the, those type of convenings is, it took off like a rocket ship. So there was 18 of us on that initial Zoom call. It was during Covid. So, you know, it was, it was one of those calls where you’d been working all day and then you’d get on this like empowering call at like five o’clock and like by eight or nine o’clock you don’t wanna get off because you’re just, you just feel like you’re in a really amazing space after working all day on, on Zoom.
And guess what they got? They helped over a, a course of, of year every, every woman got on a, a board in public company boards. Um, and that was a ca And so I, I said, there’s something in this story. And I went to Merlene and said, how, how are you gonna scale this? And, and how are you gonna tell this story more globally? Because I think you have something here. And she, at first she, she was like, that’s interesting, but who, how do you make a film? And I was like, oh, I know how to do that. That part I know I how to get the director. We got an amazing award-winning director by the name of Deborah Riley Draper and kind of put together a thought of doing this film. And then I went to someone who’s a mentor of mine by, uh, his name is Barry Williams, prolific serial public company board member, mentored a lot of people.
And I said, Hey, we’re gonna make this film. We’re gonna tell this story of black women on boards, which is now an organization, and we’re going to honor the first black woman, um, who got on a board because that’s little, a little known history fact. And I told him who we were gonna honor, and Glenn, he said, I don’t, she’s that person you’re honoring is a nice lady, but she’s not the first. And I’m like, Google says she’s the first, and he, and he, he, you know, he himself remembers ’cause he was one of the earlier pioneer board members, um, back in, you know, long time ago in the seventies and stuff. And he said, Google is wrong. And so then I started doing the lawyer in me, I started doing more research <laugh>, and he was right. And so I knew we had to make a film if for nothing else, to set history straight to make it that when you, you do your Google search, you actually get the right person. And if you were to Google that right now, you’re going to get the right person. And her name is Patricia Roberts Harris. So I knew we had to make a film for nothing else that this would live on forever and ever to make sure that, like I said, history was correct.
Glenn Hopper:
Oh, that’s great. That’s great. As we talk about this, and I know it’s politically charged and we, we can, you know, whatever, but I, I do think it’s, it’s important to, to talk about. And so I’m just gonna, well, I’ll word this away and you can answer however, you know, whatever, whatever you’re comfortable with now. But I do think it’s, it’s important to discuss, but what practical advice would you give finance leaders about how to effectively build more diverse, equitable and inclusive teams? Is this something you feel comfortable talking about?
Shannon Nash:
Well, here’s, here’s the thing. I know that the, the term de and I is charged is a charged term. And I have various feelings about that, but I have not met a leader who doesn’t say they want the best, the brightest, the smartest people for their roles. I’ve never met somebody to say that. And so what I say is it’s really about making sure you are looking in the various networks that are out there, the various schools, the various firms, the various, you know, cities, et cetera, to make sure that the talent pool you’re pulling from gets you that right, gets you the, the best and the brightest. I don’t need to use the term diverse. I don’t like, I don’t, I don’t need to use any of the terms because ultimately what you want is the best and brightest for your company, for your position, and you want it to be a process that was fair.
I’ve never met a person, regardless of all the politics around this, that says, yeah, no, I don’t want that smart person. I don’t want the best person. I just wanna keep going to the same place. I might get some good people, I might get some bad people. I don’t care. I haven’t actually met those, those people. And so to me it’s like, what, I don’t even wanna focus on the word. I wanna focus on the process of how are you getting to the best and the brightest, and then how are you keeping them, because that’s universal as well. That’s, again, who goes out of their way to do what I’m saying, hire the best and brightest people, bring ’em into your company, and then you’re not doing the things to keep them because it’s super expensive to keep replacing people. So you should be building, you know, systems for them to thrive in your company and to, you know, be promoted and to work on, you know, the things that you need them to work on because you need the best and the brightest to do this to be successful. So I think that, you know, we are in a, a time where the term is just too charged to use, has been co-opted and used for just, in my opinion, the wrong things. Let’s focus on why we’re doing this in the first place, and that is to make sure we have the best workforce that we can have for our various companies.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah. You know, so I’m a big AI machine learning guys. We talked about this before the show. I hope we get to talk about that. I hope we have time to talk about that later in the show. But it’s, to me, it is, you know, and we’ve seen it in algorithms in social media and in advertisements and all that, where you get in this positive feedback loop where it in, in going, like you said, going into the same well and the same source every time you’re getting this sort of that same positive feedback loop in the real world by not having that, that broader view. So I think very, very well said. Okay. So we <laugh> we still haven’t gotten to FDNA and I’m gonna get there. I’m driving us there. I’m, I’m driving the ship here, <laugh>. Let’s do it. You started your career in accounting, attack and tax at KPMG, and then you moved into law with taxation and corporate transaction work, and then you moved into startups and operations, and then this is all before taking your first CFO role.
Shannon Nash:
Yes.
Glenn Hopper:
Is, and, and you’ve hit on it a little bit, so, um, tell me a little bit about the transition as you stepped through that. Was there a shift in mindset or focus and kind of what drove the move to get you ultimately to the CFO seat? So
Shannon Nash:
A couple things. I think that, uh, I grew up with the mindset of especially going through, you know, the various programs at school and undergrad and law school thinking professional services, right? And at the time there was, it was like a big eight accounting firm. Actually, I think it started at 10, I remember when it was 10, then it was eight, now it’s obviously four. And then you’ve got the regional guys. And so you were just kind of ingrained to like, that’s what you do. And even in law school, you think about, you really think about either going into government service, I knew I wasn’t going to necessarily do that, but you think about professional services. And so I was just kind of wired to do professional services. And what I will tell you is that I liked professional services, but I didn’t love professional services, if that makes any sense.
You know what I mean? I didn’t love it. Yeah. It wasn’t like I wasn’t passionate about, but I liked it. It certainly was great training and I had some amazing experiences. And it wasn’t until I went in-house to a company, I went in-house to Amgen where I actually got more exposure to that You could actually, um, not necessarily do professional. You could really do this for a company, if you will, and dive into, you know, the business model and the strategy of the company. It wasn’t until I went in-house that I got that exposure. And when I got that exposure, and I understood the operations of a business much more intimately than I did as a professional service provider, I liked it, but I loved it too. Like it was both lined up for me. And then like most things in life, you start getting, um, you, you know, no one makes it, I always say, no one makes it to the C-suite.
Even if you’re born into a family who owns a company, you don’t make it there alone. Somebody mentored you, somebody supported you, somebody pushed you on. And so I had, like I saw in that company, I saw the, you know, I had access to the CFO and the controller, and I was like, I, I like that side of the business more. So I liked it more so than practicing law, honestly. And so that’s kind of what led my desire to wanting to do more operational and finance type of roles. Ultimately, I just felt like I was much more tied into like the business and making the ultimate business decisions. And that was just something I actually love.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I know exactly what you mean about professional services, and I kind of did in my career, I did things backwards. I was a CFO in-house for multiple companies before switching to doing consulting work in the professional services. And like on one hand, I love professional services because it’s always new problems. You’re always solving things and it’s, you’re in the exposure to the different industries and, and public and private companies. And this was actually my, as a consultant, was my first time working with public companies. And, um, I love that exposure, but to, to really make a difference, to have that deep, like, to be a true partner. You know, if they’re, somebody’s paying you three 50 bucks an hour, they’re trying to limit your time, <laugh>, you know, based on, and they’re like, well, we’ll, we’ll bring him or her in whenever, whenever needed. Right? But, you know, not beyond that. And then, but also if you’re a part of a company, you, like you said, you’re a builder. And I think if as a builder being in the company rather than just a yes, a consultant to the company has to be a lot more meaningful. So I, I get that.
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And you can’t just give the, uh, forecast that has the hockey stick with no explanation. That’s right. I’ve seen so many startups do that and everything, but true FP&A is so important. But from, from a CFO’s perspective, what critical role, and I know that there’s the whole, you know, it’s much broader than, than just the FP&A a part, but FB a is, you know, a big seat at the table, but what critical role did fp and a play in securing that funding and, and, and really positioning the company more for growth?
Shannon Nash:
Oh, it’s critical. I mean, we talked about this. It’s, it’s super critical. You, you’re not gonna be able to even craft the narrative until you feel comfortable about the numbers and, and the scenario planning around the numbers. And anybody that’s going to give you money is going to actually, is in part, is part of their due diligence, right? They are going to spend significant amounts of times with you on the numbers and the scenarios and the assumptions. And so fp and a is the glue to all of that. You, I just, I don’t, every time I’ve raised money, whether it’s been at a very small grassroots level to, like you said, hundreds of millions of dollars, um, it has started with really diving in for weeks, maybe even months with fp and a on all of our scenario planning. It’s just, it, it is literally the, the glue to make this all happen.
Glenn Hopper:
And as you do that as CFO, like thinking about your, your team, I know you’re really driving and, and helping shape with, these are the assumptions. These are the drivers, this is what’s realistic, this is what we can justify, you know, this is kind of our, maybe our pie in the sky best case for our forecast and everything. What was the work like with your team as you were building out these models and trying to show, you know, the sort of the future value of the company, you know, getting to that DCF based on, on what you’re projecting?
Shannon Nash:
So spending a, again, it, you know, spending a lot of intimately, a lot of time on all of those assumptions that we were, we were making, whether it on both sides of the, of, of this, this kind of viewpoint on assumptions, on revenue, assumptions on costs, assumptions on market size, all of the, all of those type of things, when you are, um, especially when you’re raising money, you’re really diving into every single assumption. And then you’re, you are kicking the tire on it, if you will, like repeatedly challenging it, coming up with, you know, you know, four or five different scenarios based off of the assumption. And then really landing on, you know, the, the argument that when I say the best argument, it’s not the hockey stick argument. The best argument is the one that is the most realistic based off of your set of fact patterns, which means you spent a lot of time with probably, you know, for a tech company, the product folks, you spend a lot of time with the sales folks, however you are CROs or partnership folks or whatever, however you make your money, right? Spend a lot of time with them, spend a lot of time with the operational folks. What are those assumptions you think you can get to this many, you know, enterprise customers in this amount of time? And here’s why, because this product can scale this way, you’re spending a lot, so you really have to understand the business. You really have to be an expert in the business to even support those assumptions. Yeah,
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah. Once again, once again, you are <laugh>, you’re just speaking my language completely at Inside Source you had the CFO and COO role. Yeah. And I think that this kind of speaks to what you mentioned earlier, the kind of the old school, what people thought of as finance and accounting, as the, uh, the green visor, the pocket protector, the nine, right? Uh, you know, uh, calculator and the print receipt coming out, <laugh> and all that. And, um, the slide rule or whatever, <laugh>, and you’re seeing more now of this C-F-O-C-O-O combo role. And I, to me, like when I’d come in, like if there was a COO at a company when I came in, probably not his best friend at first because I’m immediately like poking my head into his or her business <laugh>. And because I’m thinking as CFO, what data do we have in operations? I’m trying to get data from across the board for those forecasts and everything.
But I think that in doing that and in being this more strategic leader who has to, you can’t just be in this ivory tower of, I’m just counting beans here, you know, I don’t care. Whatever the widget is, I don’t care. Because I think that the way, one of the things that kind of changed the office of the C FFO is, you know, post Sarbanes Oxley, you’ve got this, this responsibility and, uh, you know, to step up and you’re signing <laugh>, you know, uh, the, the financial statements and, and attesting to them. And you can’t do that if you don’t understand the business. But this is all just a bunch of exposition to say. I, I think with that, you know, when you talk about working with operations on the model, that’s so important and it does set up this kind of crossover that I think years ago would’ve been unfathomable.
But serving as that CFO and COO, it’s almost, I can see how you get in that mindset of you combine the two and you think of them together. So you’re not doing finance in the vacuum, but I wonder how did you balance kind of the finance and operations approach to it? Because they, ’cause a lot of times, you know, as operations person, you’re, um, you know, arguing for more money in the budget or, you know, making money and the, and the CFO traditionally is like, no, there is no more, you know, is is that restraint there? So there is this balance. So I mean, how did you kind of find that line between both and, and Yeah.
Shannon Nash:
So I have a mindset of that the CFO’s office is not an office of, no, it’s an office of how can we make this work? And that mindset for me, started fairly on, in being exposed when I went in-house to, to Amgen like many moons ago. One of the things that come, and I think a lot of companies are doing this now, but this again was a, a long time ago, they had the, I the thought that everybody who works at this company should understand our drugs, right? We’re a pharmaceutical, we’re a biotech. You need to understand, we don’t really care what your job is. You need to understand our drugs. And they allowed you to go on, um, ride-alongs with sales reps and nothing. I, I can tell you, nothing solidifies more about what you’re doing every day than like going to like a dialysis clinic and watching your product being used and changing the lives of, you know, of patients like that type of connection and un and talking to the sales reps and understanding like how, how they do their job. And, and, and I tell you, that was like a pivotal moment for me in terms of just understanding, like, oh, to be successful at any of these, like, kind of, you know, back office positions, you really need to understand the product. And the only way to do that is go out, touch it, see it, do it.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah. And that’s right. You know, you’re, you’re seeing that more and, and more now. And when I first started my career in finance, this, this wasn’t anything we even talked about, but business partnering where the fp and a folks are out there in the departments and everything, and you’re not just sitting in that vacuum and in that, you know, uh, sort of, uh, sterile area of just, uh, you know, ones and zeros and um, and, and trial balances and accounting, right? You actually do have to learn it. And it does. If we’re gonna be more strategic, we have to understand the business. So I think that’s, that’s great. So you also were CFO at wing, which I don’t know how many people in our audience are familiar with that. Yeah. But maybe if, uh, for those unfamiliar, can you share what Wing does and what made it such a unique place to lead as as CFO?
Shannon Nash:
Yeah. Wing’s a drone co a commercial drone delivery company. And commercial drone delivery is real. It’s happening, it’s happening globally, it’s happening in the us. Um, wing is operating currently in, in Dallas. So certainly people in the Dallas Fort Worth area are familiar, right? With the ability to get their deliveries wing partnered with a Walmart to do this. So you today, uh, in those areas, you can, you know, go onto an app and decide that you want your delivery to come by drone, and it comes quick and it’s safe and it’s here today. So I’m always drawn to things that are like helping advanced a, a, a need for with technology that I really think, you know, will shape the future. And then I’m also, you know, inspired by just new innovative things that involve, that are complex, involve regulatory, and cutting it city planning, cutting edge tech, things of that nature. So that was what was to me exciting about Wink.
Glenn Hopper:
That’s great. That’s great. So, one question for our audience is, when you are looking for bringing on someone, or bringing on whether it’s a, a new head of fp and a or who’s moving up in your organization in fp and a, walk me through this kind of the skills or qualities that stand out to you in the candidates. What makes a good fp and a person for you?
Shannon Nash:
Yeah, so kind of like we talked about, you know, gone are the days where finance and A CFO was just looking for somebody, a who just closed, closed the books and, and tell you the historical, you know, news about what happened the month before. All that stuff is, is honestly table stakes. We assume you can do that. It’s really about looking for that professional who’s, you know, a strategic thinker, curious, adaptable, great communications Bill, somebody who, the CFO’s looking for somebody who can take that historical data, right? Be a fortune teller, take, take that, extrapolate that into what’s gonna happen in the future, hence the fortune telling. And then put that together in a concise story. And then come present that to the CFO, who’s obviously got other stakeholders he or she needs to present that to. That’s what they’re looking for. So the assumption is that you’re good at modeling, right?
The assumption is that, you know, you know how to take complex data, data and like piece that together into a story that’s like the assumption. What they want you to do is then be curious about it and be able to poke holes at it. And so a good like kind of VP of of fp and a when they’re, they’re their CFOs like right hand person, if anything. And so they are coming to them and saying, here’s what I think now as I’m prepping you and we’re talking about this, let’s kick the tires on it. What if I change this? I think that would mean we need to do, instead of going into this market, we need to tell the sales team to look at these markets, for example. So they really understand strategy and they work with the strategy team. Like they, they really work across those type of groups.
And so you’re looking for somebody, that’s why I said that cur that intellectual curiosity is also a super important part of this. ’cause they’re not just looking for an answer. They’re looking for you to also kick the tires or, or poke holes as, as a better way to say it into the answer. Because ultimately that’s what’s gonna happen with the CFO when he or she’s talking to the CEO to the board to investors. They’re gonna poke holes in your answer. And that’s what you want your head of fp and a to be able to really help prepare. So in many ways, the head of fp and a also has a slight eye, you know, investor relations type of role in his or her mindset as well.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, that makes sense. And I <laugh>, this is, I’m laughing because this is the part that my audience knows is kind of inevitable. I’m eventually gonna get here on every episode, but I, you know, when you talk about the table stakes for FP&A with automation, and particularly with ai lately the table stakes are gonna be increasingly, I mean, just how quickly AI is moving in particular, but even, you know, just rule based and just standard automation. You used to be able to kind of rise up in FP&A because you were really good at modeling and building, you know, you could do all these complex formulas and Excel and everyth and that’s where you really stood out. But now, I mean, especially I know it’s early and it’s not there yet, but Microsoft is gonna nail this copilot thing. We’re gonna find that all these formulas, these nested if statements and complex, you know, formulas that we did that took us forever, that we were so proud of in, right, in the coming months or certainly years, you’re just gonna be able to type to, uh, remember Clippy from Microsoft, the little
Shannon Nash:
<laugh> Yes. Little
Glenn Hopper:
Popup assistant. You’re gonna have your AI version of Clippy.
Shannon Nash:
Yeah.
Glenn Hopper:
And you’re gonna be say, you know, you’re just gonna type in, I want to do this with the data and it’s gonna do it. So all the things that we used to really pride ourselves on are gonna be replaced by either AI or standard automation. I mean, now you can put Python in Excel and, you know, it, we’re just, it’s, it’s gotten so much more, so much different than, than when I came up and I’m wondering the table stakes get higher because if, well, if the, if the robots are doing all this sort of data entry and even some base level modeling, like there’s so much software out there right now that just goes straight into your ERP and pulls out your information and can do realtime, you know, forecast updates on the fly and stuff that we used to do. And I’m, I, I know there’s still a lot of, of tweaking that you can go around it, but what happens to fp NA, what do you think, you know, where are we going with the evolving technology in the fp NA role?
Shannon Nash:
I think a lot of people that I’ve spoken to and myself included, are excited about that. Some of the most nerve wracking, I know, you know, this nerve wracking things is getting ready to present to board whomever and having somebody from fp and a call you and say, ah, something was wrong with the model, it
Glenn Hopper:
Broke here,
Shannon Nash:
<laugh> right,
Glenn Hopper:
On one of the 17 linked workbooks that’s 10 steps downstream and
Shannon Nash:
<laugh>. Correct. Yeah. Right. And so the ability to use AI to, to handle that, I think people are excited, quite frankly about that. Because really where I need their time spent is on that fortune telling and what do we do and how do we execute? And that’s where I think AI’s not gonna, AI is gonna help with suggestions, but a lot of that isn’t based off of formulas or anything like that, right? It’s, it’s really based off of intimately understanding the business, understanding your customer, understanding your market, and then putting that all together based on the data and coming up with like, this is plan A, plan B, plan C, and that’s where I want the fp and a people focus is on that part of it. That’s where their secret sauce really is. It’s not on, did you, do you, I I’ll date myself, do you know how to do vlookup? Like who cares <laugh>? Who cares about that? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Glenn Hopper:
So, and that, and, and yeah. And it’s gonna be increasingly less and less important as that gets offloaded. So here’s one, I’ve never been on a board before. I’ve had to present to boards through, you know, the, the last many years of my career. And it’s, to this day, it still makes me very nervous. And it depends on the board, you know, different boards have different,
Shannon Nash:
Yeah.
Glenn Hopper:
But there, I mean, it’s very serious and you’re, you know, you can, we were talking about, um, feedback loop within the management team. You can sort of get to everybody kind of singing the same song and, and, um, and has the same message. But if you have the right board, they’re not drinking the same Kool-Aid there. They’re coming in with this true objective, um, lens on there. And it’s great. And, and companies need that kind of oversight. And I think it keeps, keeps companies out public or even a private company, like having like an advisory panel or something, I think is a, is a great advice. But every time I go into a board meeting, like you get, you know, after a couple of quarters, you get to know the board members and you know, the ki the audit committee, you know, there’s the one guy that’s gonna ask this specific question and you’ve gotta be ready for that.
And then there’s certain people, it’s like, okay, well I’m gonna present here because I know they’re gonna ask, you know, two levels deeper and I need to keep some additional information in my pocket for all that. But I’ve, you know, having not been on the board side, I wonder, and I know a lot of our listeners have to present to boards too, what advice would you give, either this could be for a CFO or head of FP&A, anyone who’s having to present to that level at the board level, what do you think about you could tell them not effectively communicating at that level?
Shannon Nash:
Oh, I’ve got great suggestions for that. I think, okay, first of all, be concise. We’ve been, been sent a board deck that has a thousand pages, 2000 pages, whatever. And most times as, as much as you wanna get it, you know, a week and a half in advance, we get it very close to the board meeting. So it’s a lot of information to go through. The last thing we wanna do is sit in a board meeting where you, I’ve, I’ve had to go through a thousand pages or more, and you wanna come in and present 25 slides to me. Like, this isn’t the deep dive unless it’s like one of those scenarios where you needed a deep dive with management. And then quite frankly, if you need a deep dive with management like that, it should probably be a separate meeting, like it’s own focus thing.
And that does happen. But for a typical board meeting, you’re not doing significant deep dives. They should be concise, quick, get to the point. So I always say, think about it like this. Tell me what the issue is. So this is the lawyer in me. Um, we used to use this method, uh, called irac. It was like issue rule analysis, conclusion. That’s what they teach you in law school. So something very similar, come in, what’s the issue? What are you trying to, what do I, what do you want me to know about it? And basically do this in like a slide or two. How did you think about it? Like, analyze it for me, what worked, what’s working, what’s not working? Like open the kimono, tell me the warts, tell us what’s not working so we can help you and, and ask the board for if, if there is the board can be helpful.
’cause most people on the board want to be helpful. We’re all trying to get this ship to go the same way. Tell us how we can be helpful, but I should be able to know that like quickly. And you should be concise about it. You should use data, obviously from a finance standpoint, we want to know data, but not data for just data sake. Like know your data so you can answer my questions when I ask you about it. Like, know your data cold, but I’m not coming in here to be the data expert. You’re my data expert. So answer the questions and then tell me what you’re doing with the data. But don’t hide around just being a data like savant and just throw a bunch of data at me with no, like conclusion because I can’t do anything with that. And then practice, practice, practice where you come to this board meeting, meaning, um, the CFO loves to do this with you, your peers, if, if you’re the head of fp a talking to the board, anticipate all the various questions. That’s where before the board meetings, especially most of the times the fp and a folks are talking to the audit committee and maybe to the full board. That’s where really having that like one-on-one call with the, um, audit chair comes in handy before you get in front of the committee or the board. So I highly recommend developing that relationship as well.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, that makes sense. And it’s, you know, again, thinking back to presentations that I’ve been part of, whether it was up to the board, or I can remember early in my career, the first CFOI worked for at the, at the quarterly meeting would just sit there and read financials. Just the driest, like Ferris Bueller, kind of just reading through facts and you know, going through each market talking about what our EBITDA was in each market, just without, really, it’s just reading information. It’s, if you, if you’re, you could hand someone a spreadsheet and they could see that, that there’s no, you don’t need to read the spreadsheet. No. So it’s really, it’s changed a lot. And a big part of that is storytelling. And this goes back again to like what you just said with, um, from the attorney and you to also being a, a creative storyteller. With that background, are there specific examples you could link to on how you leverage storytelling in your, in your career? Or just even more advice for our, for our listeners about using
Shannon Nash:
That? Well, again, storytelling is a huge part of this. Whether that’s internal storytelling or external storytelling. It’s not about just saying, here’s what the numbers are. Like you said, just reading like this, you know, we subscription subscription revenue grew by this percent year over year and blah, blah, blah. Like I can read, I can see it, it’s on the slide. Tell me what to do with that. What does that signal for you for the next quarter and the next quarter, you know, or are you seeing it? Like, does that signal to you that there’s a a going to be a, a downward trend in why, tell me, weave in the story for me. And I’ll tell you, for me, surprisingly, I I, I can’t, it, it worked for me and I’ve heard other people that has worked for as well. Um, one of my earlier roles when I, when I said I worked for Debbie Allen, she had her whole, all of everybody, her whole team take a, um, improv cloud.
We did improv. And remember at the time we were doing the class, I was like, I went to law school, I did all these things. Why am I taking an improv? I’m never going to be like on tv. Like, that’s not what I wanna do. Why would I take improv? What a blessing taking an improv class did? Because what does it make you do? Tell stories off the top of your, off, off the top of your head. Like you have to dive in to like continuing the story. And it helps break that shell of wanting, we all wanna be prepared, but it also helps you think really quickly. ’cause you are prepared now. You should be able to tell the story to the next guy, and then I should be able to, to take whatever you said and add onto it very quickly. That’s a skillset that you’re gonna need in terms of whether I said again, it’s that internal or that external storytelling. You need it for both. And so interestingly enough, I can tell you that a big part of how that started working for me was taking an improv class.
Glenn Hopper:
This is crazy, but you were the second guest in a row, Mike Dion, who I, um, interviewed last week.
Shannon Nash:
Uhhuh
Glenn Hopper:
<affirmative> also talked about taking his improv class and how important that was. Or I think that might’ve been his answer to the question of, what’s something not many people know about you? And I’ve never taken an improv class, but my son has. And we were talking about it and he said that one of the biggest things in improv is you never say no. ’cause you, you don’t, you don’t wanna be the spot where the story ends. Correct. You, everything that you do has to be and boomerang it back to the other person. And that’s actually, whether it’s communication or um, I mean a way to think about collaboration and everything, it’s probably, I mean, I could see, so I think we’re gonna start a movement here. We’re gonna, maybe if we need to start like an improv class four finance,
Shannon Nash:
Finance professional <laugh> finance. I was about to say, Glen, I think we can, I think there’s a business model for us right there, <laugh>
Glenn Hopper:
That’s really interesting. And I think that there’s something else that as you were going through that, that I think about early in your career, you don’t have the experience. You do, you know, you learn how to do the modeling and how to, you know, build the, have this deliverable and you don’t have the insights yet. You don’t even know the questions to ask it. You don’t have the domain expertise. You’ve just got your school and then what you’re doing. So you don’t, you don’t know the, those questions. And as you develop, you know, a a lot of our listeners, uh, aspire to become CFOs one day, and I’m thinking about that mindset that you have to have of, I am delivering this information, but I’m not just a, a conduit for it. I’m, I have to be adding value to the information as it passes through me. Otherwise, I’m, I could be easily replaced by a bot. So I’m thinking about right,
You, I mean, obviously as you talk, I can tell that you have that mindset and as a board member, even more so because you’re this, uh, Socratic observer, well, not Socratic completely, but you’re, you’re out of the mire of it and you’re able to come in and get that 30,000 foot view and you have the questions. And I think that’s a skillset that you have to, you have to be able to back out more and more, uh, you know, from the individual trees to the larger forest as you go up in career. But what separates people who kind of are get, get limited and, and stuck in a range and aren’t able to move up to that CFO, what, what separates the people who do make good CFOs from those who never quite get there?
Shannon Nash:
I think that the people who show that they are always lifelong learners and inquisitive in that way, I think that sets them apart. For most people listening, they are, I would say, used to the fact that there’s some form of continued education you have to do, whether it’s for a license or whatever. So the people that I, I think that really take that and, and show that they are just always like, lifelong learners and trying to improve and not just like, Hey, I know this job inside and on, I just wanna do this job. Those are the people that are, that tend to, to move up, the people that treat the business and what they’re doing. Like they’re an owner, like they’re a true owner. Like if you own this, you would really wanna understand every impact of the business on the financial, you know, health of the company and the future, financial future of the company.
If it was your company, treat it like it is for a lot of people. You’re, you have stock, you know, you, you have options, things that, so you are an owner, but it’s interesting, like how people still don’t have that mindset. I’ve met way too many people who don’t treat it like it’s their business, but I think the people that do stand out, quite frankly, I think the people that do work on the, we just talked about that, um, that storytelling, which I got that helps them, um, develop an executive presence. I think the people who work on that also, they stand out. And then a bit of it is, um, taking some risk, right? All successful companies had to take some risk here and there. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But I think the people that are willing to, to make some decisions that, you know, may not be popular, but here’s how they back it up. They tend to stand out and, and also sometimes it works and doesn’t work all the time, right? But when I look at the people where it works, they’ve got a little bit of that in their background too.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah. And it’s like if you just stay in your comfort zone, you’re, there’s no growth there. Yeah. So you have to, every now and then get out a little bit ahead of your skis, maybe feel that imposter syndrome a little bit. Yeah. And, and take those risks. So that’s a, yeah, that’s a, a, a great bit of advice there. Alright, so we’re winding it down kind of to the, uh, the personal, uh, section of the show. I mean, we, I feel like we’ve talked about so much here. I have no idea what your answer’s gonna be on this, but I feel like you’re gonna really surprise us. But our next question, these next couple are ones that we ask all of our guests and, uh,
Shannon Nash:
Okay.
Glenn Hopper:
The next one is, see, I, I think for a lot of people, the fact that you’ve made a movie, this is probably where this would come in, but we already know that about you. So
Shannon Nash:
<laugh> Yeah, you do.
Glenn Hopper:
My question is, what is something that people might not know about you?
Shannon Nash:
Some people know, but, but maybe not the extent of it. So I’m, I’m, I dance a lot. I do have a Zumba and UJA m so, uh, those are group fitness, um, dance formats. So I’m an instructor, so I have my license to do that. And let’s just say I have gotten my fair share of time. We, we live in the Bay Area and go to a lot of Golden State warrior basketball games. And I have gotten my fair share of time, even most recently on the, um, the, what do you call it? The jumbotron. Oh, where they show the dancing people with a Yes. Yeah. <laugh>. So much so that very recently, like last week, um, we have a friend that’s a, a newscaster at ESPN and I’m on the jumbotron and that, and he’s texting my husband saying, is that your wife on the jumbotron at the game right now? And my husband, so great. And you can see my husband in the jumbotron too, just like this, just looking right. That’s
Glenn Hopper:
Me. That’s the other
Shannon Nash:
<laugh>. There, there she goes again with the dancing so much that they’re putting her on tv. So there you go.
Glenn Hopper:
Oh, that’s great. So aside, I’m a Memphis Grizzlys season ticket holder, so, um, we might have to, you know, talk about your boy Draymond
Shannon Nash:
<laugh>. Oh, I’m a huge Draymond fan. Huge. He’s from a, a small town called Saginaw, Michigan. And um, I’m from that town, so
Glenn Hopper:
Oh, okay.
Shannon Nash:
Like my, my aunt was his vice principal in high school, so shout out to Saginaw, Michigan.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, actually, honestly, if, if, uh, Draymond where on my team I would, I would love him. But as you know, as a, another Western conference team, it’s like, here he goes again, that’s <laugh>. But we had, you know, we used to have Zach Randolph who was kind of, you know, you need that. Uh, yeah, he’s great. And actually I love how kind of outspoken he is at this point in his career and he’ll just me too. I dunno if you saw him at the NBA Allstar game. Just I did talking like, this is garbage. I
Shannon Nash:
Did, I did <laugh>. He is right.
Glenn Hopper:
<laugh>. So, okay, well this is, we’re gonna have a whole other podcast and we’re gonna talk about, uh, the NBA. That’s gonna be <laugh>.
Shannon Nash:
Let’s do that. I’m ready for it.
Glenn Hopper:
Okay. So our, our last question, and this is, I always feel, I almost feel bad asking CFOs this question because it’s been so long since we’ve really gotten into it. Right? Um, but I’m gonna go ahead and throw out what is your favorite Excel function and why?
Shannon Nash:
Okay, so I put a lot of thought into this one because to your point, it’s like, oh, Excel, I mean, yeah, so gone other days, again, the whole v lookup thing is like, so like, you know, 1980s, once it’s like skillset set back <laugh>. Um, I’d say the, the most recent things for me that, that have been helpful is, so there’s index match, right? Where you looking up like a specific value, um, like you wanna find the sales for a specific product or something like that. I think index match is like, it helps you get to exactly what you want much better than like VLOOKUP is just kind of like going from, you know, left to right, whereas index match is like everything. And then also, uh, even, even more so recently I got into using SUMIF.
Glenn Hopper:
For you Ah, yes,
Shannon Nash:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Like that has actually been helpful and I was, and this is a true story, I was really looking for like, it was all this data about like revenue and it was different regions and different categories and that kind of helped me get to like if I’m looking for like, you know, this specific revenue and this type of category in this region, I could get to like the total that I wanted fairly quickly. So those would be my two.
Glenn Hopper:
Perfect. Perfect. So, alright, so couple questions, couple of final questions before we let you go. One, how can our listeners find the movie on board if they’re looking for it? And two, I know you’ve got the new podcast coming and everything. If they want to connect with you and, and follow your work, how can they connect with you?
Shannon Nash:
Yeah, easiest place to, we talked about this as well. For me, the best platform that I’m on is LinkedIn and I won’t talk about the others ’cause I’m not on them as much. <laugh> for a whole host of reasons. But in particular LinkedIn is, is my go-to one and there are several Shannon Nash’s on there. Um, but I’m the one that’s, well you
Glenn Hopper:
Lemme put your, uh, we’ll put your link in there. The link in the, in the show notes. Yeah.
Shannon Nash:
Perfect.
Glenn Hopper:
Yeah, perfect.
Shannon Nash:
But
Glenn Hopper:
Actually I interrupted you though. So what is, how, if, if they don’t see the show notes, how can they find you on, on LinkedIn?
Shannon Nash:
Yeah, mine is Shannon Nash and then afterwards I’m the one that’s the lawyer and CPA. Okay. The other ones are not lawyers and CPAs and it’s in my title so you can see it. And then onboard is on, um, a platform called Vimeo.
Glenn Hopper:
Okay. Yep. Yeah. Great. And we’ll put, we’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well, so. Perfect. Well, Shannon, this has been just incredible. I’ve really, I was looking forward to the show all week. I’m so glad to have you on and I, I really appreciate your time.
Shannon Nash:
Thank you so much. Had a great time.
