For Stéphanie Herbots, a finance perfectionist, everything was going to plan. Stéphanie got her masters degree. Sailed into a career in finance. Controllership and FP&A roles for the most prestigious companies followed. This included budgets and forecasting for a division of telecoms giant, Orange. Then it struck.
Stephanie faced a series of challenges in the midst of the 12th revision of the annual budget (no exaggeration!)Becoming a mum. Staff leaving. Being forced to pick up the slack for FP&A challenges with strict deadlines. Stephanie could not cope.
Stephanie faced burnout and a spiral of low mental health she describes as “slow and vicious.” She quit finance.
In episode 8 of FP&A Today, Stephanie speaks about her journey, with Zoe Cooke, FP&A Director at We are Social, who has been a powerful advocate of mental health in finance throughout her career.
Leading the discussion FP&A Today host Paul Barnhurst, who himself has seen the impact of mental health first hand and is among those leading the drive for better recognition and transparency among the FP&A profession. This wide-ranging conversation discusses
- The specific mental health challenges within the FP&A profession
- Proven advice to lead and cope with stress, burnout and mental health in finance
- The limits and challenges of forecasting in uncertain times
- How challenges with data and manual processes can be overcome
Paul Barnhurst
Hello, everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst aka the FP&A guy. FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the market leading financial planning and analysis platform. Every week, we’ll bring you guests from the world of FP&A and discuss challenges and stories that we all experience working in FP&A. Today, I have two guests with me that I’m super excited to have on the show. We have Zoe and Stephanie joining me. Zoe’s coming from London and Stephanie’s with us from Belgium. Right?
Stephanie
Right.
Paul Barnhurst
Today, we’re gonna discuss a few different topics. We’re gonna talk about FP&A as we always do, but we’re also gonna talk a little bit about burnout and mental health within finance. So again, Zoe and Stephanie, welcome to the show.
Stephanie
Thanks.
Paul Barnhurst
How about we start with Zoe can, maybe you do a little bit of an introduction and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Zoe Cooke
Yeah, so hi, I’m Zoe. I am currently or newly, the finance director at We Are Social depending on when this comes out. I have spent just over the last decade working in finance and specifically sort of FP&A within the eCommerce space and more recently in marketing agencies in London. It’s really great. I love it. I never planned to work in finance at all. In fact it was just about my nightmare when I was studying. And I was really lucky to get an internship at Groupon when it was, I think, six months old in the UK. And it was just the absolute best training ground for working in finance, because it was at the time, the fastest growing company of all time. So, I got to help start a couple of businesses there. I got to work in Switzerland, which was amazing. And unfortunately I got to help close a couple of businesses there. And that’s when I moved over to work in marketing and I’ve spent the last seven years working in the marketing industry which I also love because it is always so buzzy. It always has some unique challenges.
Paul Barnhurst
I bet. Well, thank you for that introduction. Stephanie, can you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Stephanie
Yes. Well after my master’s degree in business management and administration, like 18 years ago, I started my career in finance, working for major companies here in Belgium, for over 15 years mainly as a business controller and I then left finance to work in retail as a resource manager. I was still managing budgets and forecasts, but directly for the business. And I was also managing a small team. And yeah, 14 years ago four years ago, sorry, I suffered from burnout and realized, well, I wasn’t really happy at work and I needed a greater sense of purpose in what I was doing on a daily basis. And I really wanted to help people on a higher level. So after a long process of self development, I decided to become a life and career coach. And to do so I followed a training recognized by the ICF. So the international Coaching Federation and I am now a professional certified coach, mainly specialized in professional reorientation and burnout.
Paul Barnhurst
Okay, great. No, I appreciate that story. And kind of speaking to burnout, I think, you know, if we look back over the last couple years, I’d say almost everybody, but especially finance with COVID, you know, the energy crisis, the conflicts, the constant change, and kind of reforecasting and budgeting has dealt with burnout. Now, Zoe, I believe you recently spoke on another podcast a little bit about mental health. And one of the things you mentioned is, you know, one in four people will experience some kind of mental health challenge. And so maybe, can you talk a little bit about that and, you know, kind of your experiences having worked in finance the last couple of years, dealing with burnout and mental health?
Zoe Cooke
Yeah. Mental health impacts so many of us. And in terms of the working population, I think in the UK, it’s more like one in seven, which I think really highlights something about how difficult it is and how unprepared a lot of industries are to deal with people who have mental health, because those two different things, one in four people in the population and one in seven in the working population, like that’s a huge difference. Right. I think, one of the other things that’s really interesting about the stats in the UK is mental health in the workplace is twice as likely to impact women as men. And I think that’s something that we kind of misconstrued quite a lot because a lot of the kind of narrative around mental health is focused towards like young men in particular, which is a bit of a misnomer because it tends to be men in their sort of forties and fifties who experience a lot higher rates of mental health than sort of teenage boys, which is what, who we tend to think about when we’re talking about that. In finance, it’s really hard, right?
By the nature of the job, we have a very spiky workload. So if it’s re-forecast time, if it’s budget time, if it’s month end, we’re kind of running at a hundred miles an hour.
FP&A Director at We are Social
Because we have, by the nature of the job, we have a very spiky workload. So if it’s re-forecast time, if it’s budget time, if it’s month end, we’re kind of running at a hundred miles an hour. And then we get those sort of couple of weeks where we can kind of breathe, relax, kind of do whatever. And in terms of actually dealing with that from a kind of stress management standpoint, it can be really tough, especially if you have anything underlying, in terms of mental health conditions, that’s going to be exacerbated by that kind of work pressure.
Paul Barnhurst
Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I can definitely relate to a couple things you said. You know to be fully transparent, you know, mental health runs in my family and I’ve dealt with some of those issues and it’s been especially difficult as you’ve mentioned during those times, when, you know, you’re grinding constantly, you got those 12, 14 hour days it’s budget season or it’s quarter end. I remember one year we lost the entire team. I was basically the acting director in doing three people’s jobs for almost, you know, the better part of a year. We hired some people, but then I had to train them. And I remember that just the stress and the burnout. It can really make you go, wait, why am I doing this? You start to question. You know, and I think Stephanie, you mentioned a little bit of some of that burnout. Maybe talk a little bit about, you know, your finance experience and you know, how you manage that burnout and what made you decide to, you know, go a different, different path?
I’m a perfectionist. So pressure also came from within and I also became a mom at that time. I wanted to manage everything perfectly. You know, my career, my social life, my private life. And it was too much
Stéphanie Herbots, Former Finance Director
Stephanie
Yeah working in finance was kind of a safe choice at that time for me. I had a good job. It was well paid, but it was also very, very demanding and stressful. And yeah, during my latest year as business controller, a few people left the team, but they were not replaced. So, I felt a bit isolated and yeah, my workload increased a lot. And I’m a perfectionist. So pressure also came from within and I also became a mom at that time. I wanted to manage everything perfectly. You know, my career, my social life, my private life. And it was too much. Yeah. It burnt me. So during my recovery process, I started coaching sessions and I realized that I wanted to be in my coach’s shoes. I always felt like my goal was to help people somehow. To help them on their way towards happiness, help them feel fulfilled and motivated, but didn’t know how until then. Yeah. And coaching. Yeah. That was the answer I was looking for.
Paul Barnhurst
Great. Now I appreciate you sharing that and maybe, you know, speaking a little bit about coaching, what advice would you offer? You know, people that are going through that stress, you know, particularly kind of finance, you know, budget season, some of those challenges, what were some of the things that, you know, you found through coaching that would’ve helped you when you were going through that, that you would share with others?
I would say to managers and people, please listen to your employees to their needs, encourage them, get to know them. What do they like? What are they really good at? What are the values? And take that knowledge into account, help them evolve by giving them positive and constructive feedback
Stéphanie Herbots, Former Finance Director
Stephanie
Yeah. Well, I would actually say to managers, people, please listen to your employees to their needs, encourage them, get to know them. What do they like? What are they really good at? What are the values? And take that knowledge into account, help them evolve by giving them positive and constructive feedback. People they really want to be useful and they want to be taken into account actually. So yeah.
Paul Barnhurst
I love that where you say, get to know people, right? Get to know them personally and make sure you’re taking their situation into account. I can remember, you know, being a new father and there were some health challenges we were dealing with in the home. And my boss was great. It’s like if I needed to work from home, not a problem. I can remember, you know, doing a work call, holding a baby in one arm and on the phone, on the other. And you know, the baby started crying and the manager at the time goes, yeah, I cry too when I think about our budget this year and how far off we are. You know, and it was just really sweet and we just kept going and nobody let it be an issue. And I think having those types of managers is invaluable. And so maybe Zoe, if you could talk a little bit about, you know, how you’ve helped your team, you know, things you’ve done to help them avoid burnout. Because I’m sure you’ve seen some of it. You know, there’s been long hours, which we can’t always prevent. So what are some of the things you’ve done to kind of help, help manage your team and make sure they’re in the best place they can be for work?
Zoe Cooke
I think there’s a lot more capacity in what we do to be able to flex roles to people’s interests and their passions.
Zoe Cooke, FD Director at We are Social
Yeah, absolutely. I, a hundred percent, resonate with what Stephanie’s saying. I think getting to know the people who work for you is really like the key to all of it. We kind of, I think we sometimes have this view still in finance that someone’s, you know, an analyst and then they’re a management accountant, then they’re a controller then they’re blah, blah, blah. But it’s not necessarily tailored to their skills or their passions. And now that our jobs are becoming kind of a little bit more fluid as we’re having to be more and more involved in the sort of business operations and the strategy side, which, you know, maybe wasn’t the case sort of 10, 15 years ago. I think there’s a lot more capacity in what we do to be able to flex roles to people’s interests and their passions.
what really kind of hit home for me was how many of the signs of mental health are exactly the same as signs of poor job performance. So is someone late all the time? Are they irritable? Are they missing deadlines? It changed the way that I thought about when my employees weren’t performing
Zoe Cooke, FD Director at We are Social
So I one hundred percent agree with Stephanie on that. In terms of the kind of practical things that I’ve done, the number one thing for me was doing the mental health first aid training, which is an internationally recognized certification. And it’s you do a couple of days training and you learn things around non-judgmental listening. What’s some very common mental health conditions? What are some of the signs of mental health? And what really kind of hit home for me was how many of the signs of mental health are exactly the same as signs of poor job performance. So is someone late all the time? Are they irritable? Are they missing deadlines? Are they, you know, and it really kind of changed the way that I thought about when my employees weren’t performing. Is this because they can’t do the job? Nine times out of 10 it’s not gonna be that because you’ve hired people who, you know, can perform. And if you’re a good manager as well, you should, you should be kind of making them perform well in any case. Nine times out of 10, I think it’s usually that there’s something else going on in their life that you might not know about. Because they might not feel comfortable talking to you about which is, you know, completely valid. And I think we also need to be really aware that sometimes our staff don’t want to talk to their managers about what’s going on in their personal life. Like some people find that line really tough to walk. And I think that’s why it’s really important to have a lot of people within a company who have been trained to understand mental health conditions and be able to sort of have those open conversations so that if it’s not you specifically, that they’re gonna talk to someone that they can talk with.
And also that’s why it’s so important for companies to have a well-rounded approach to the support they offer in terms of mental health. Whether that’s an employee assistance program, whether mental health support is covered on your private healthcare. You know, whether it’s people coming in to do external training, that sort of thing. Because different people need different outlets and need different avenues to help. So it can’t always be the managers, even though it is really important that managers understand what’s going on from that mental health standpoint.
Paul Barnhurst
Well, thank you. You said a lot there and you know, a couple of couple things. One, I totally agree that it is a company effort. You know, you have got to have resources available. It’s also up to every manager to make sure they’re supportive of their team and they do what they can. But like you said, sometimes people don’t want to talk about it to their manager. They don’t want you to know what’s going on, but you can clearly tell something has changed. The performance has changed. And so there’s not always, you know, a right answer outside of, you know, getting training, being a listener, letting them know you’re there for them and doing the best you can to help them through it. Because every person’s gonna be a little bit unique. So, you know, I appreciate that point of how it’s, it’s not just a manager, but there’s a company effort that needs to happen. You know, healthcare and different things, and training. Can you talk a little bit more, you mentioned that training you had taken, what was, what was that called again?
Zoe Cooke
The Mental Health First Aid. So, in the UK it’s run through Mental Health First Aid England. I think it was actually started in Australia in 2007. If I’ve got that wrong, I’m very sorry. I think it’s 2007. And it was basically designed to be a kind of counterpoint to like actual first aid. So, The World Health Organization’s description of health includes mental health. So the idea is that you cannot have healthy employees if you don’t have mentally healthy employees or people. And the idea is basically everyone who has first aiders should also have mental health first aiders. You learn a lot about how to intervene safely and offer support in an appropriate manner.
we still have this kind of view at work that like you should come into work and just be your work self and you should leave it at the door and you know, you just need to be professional and not let your emotions affect you and it’s nonsense. Because you know, we’re employees
Zoe Cook, FD at We Are Social
Because I think one thing that’s really tough is, you know, I think we’ve probably all experienced it when you’re going through something and someone responds to you in the wrong way. And you’re like, well, great, thanks. But you’ve actually just made me feel worse about myself. And you know, we don’t wanna be in that situation, especially not with people that we manage. Because work can be such a huge sort of stressor on people. And you know, people go through all sorts in their lifetime, whether it’s their marriage breaking down, stuff going on with their kids, their financial issues, and we’re never gonna know that, right? But we still have this kind of view at work that like you should come into work and just be your work self and you should leave it at the door and you know, you just need to be professional and not let your emotions affect you and it’s nonsense. Because you know, we’re employees. Yes, we should be professional. Sure. But we’re human beings as well. And sometimes that is just impossible.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. You know, Stephanie, I saw you shaking your head in agreement a lot over there. And what would you like to add to kind of what, you know, Zoe just mentioned there. What are some of your thoughts as you listen to that?
Well, for me it was vicious as it settles very slowly. I was in some kind of automatic pilot mode on, you know, and, and I didn’t realize it. And I didn’t know what the signs actually were
Stéphanie Herbots, Former Finance Director
Stephanie
Well, I actually totally agree with what she just said. What I want to add is that burnout is kind of vicious. Well, for me it was vicious as it settles very slowly. I was in some kind of automatic pilot mode on, you know, and, and I didn’t realize it. And I didn’t know what the signs actually were, because there was no prevention training or so in my company. So my family noticed. They told me, you know what? You’re kind of different. There’s something going on with you. But in my case, I’m not sure that the people, you know, at work could have prevented it because yeah. Slowly, slowly, slowly it, yeah, it settles in. And when it’s there, it’s too late.
Paul Barnhurst
No thank you. I mean, I think that’s a good point. I think it’s important, very important. Remember for most people it isn’t, you know, burned out in a one day event, right? You don’t just, all of a sudden say I’m burned out. It generally happens over a long time and there’s gradual changes and sometimes they’re so gradual that we don’t even notice them. You know, there are other times when it’s very clear. We have all been in or know people who have been in what we would call toxic environments. Environments where there’s a lot of burnout and it’s clear, everybody’s kind of at the ropes’ end. That’s easy to identify when there’s an issue. But when it’s gradual change, it’s really hard to notice. And I think that’s why Zoe, as you mentioned, is having a culture and a company that’s open is important. You may not be able to, you know, solve everybody’s issue obviously, but they’re more willing to talk to you.
There’s more knowing, Hey, my boss is gonna be understanding, there’s more training. And so it’s, it’s helpful to have that environment where it’s okay if you need a talk. If you need help and people understand that. Hey, when you’re burned out, you can come tell me. Yes we’ll figure it out. If we need to shift some things around, we’ll do that. You know? And you address it on a case by case basis. So I think you, I think you make a great point there, Stephanie, that it’s something that we don’t always notice. Like you mentioned your family, those closest to, you had to point out , you didn’t realize what was going on. And so I think that that’s important, you know, kind of talking to burnout and you know, getting back a little bit to FP&A and you know, get both your thoughts.
But to me, I think there’s two areas that often kind of feed that burnout. One is the budgeting and forecasting cycle, which can be incredibly long hours sometimes. And often it drags on longer than we think, we think. Okay it’s gonna be a six week process and three months later you’re going through round 12 or whatever. Right? We’ve all been there. I might exaggerate a little bit, but you know what I mean? And I think the second area is the manual amount of work we often have to do, you know, systems don’t integrate, data’s a mess, all those types of things. So maybe, you know, kind of talk about those, those two things, how they’ve impacted you in your career and how you try to manage, you know, that budget and forecast season and then maybe a little bit the manual challenges that we often deal with in FP&A. We will start with Stephanie, from your career of seeing that and then maybe we’ll go over to you after that.
Budgeting and forecasting, they can be long. You know you have version one, then you have version 12. Deadlines are really, really short. So, I think that’s the most challenging part of the job having to do a lot in a very short time.
Stéphanie Herbots, Former Finance Director
Stephanie
Well, yeah, as, as you said, budgeting and forecasting, they can be long. You know you have version one, then you have version 12, actually. It happened for me. So, yeah, that’s kind of frustrating and deadlines are really, really short. So, I think that’s the most challenging part of the job is that you have to do a lot in a very short time. So that was a part for me that was very stressful. And that’s why I wanted to quit or actually leave the finance world because of the pressure and the stress.
Paul Barnhurst
So, speaking to that just real quick and we’ll come over to you here in a second though. You mentioned the pressure and the stress. What were some of the things that kept you in finance outside of budgeting? What did you kind of, what did you enjoy in the process?
Stephanie
Well, I really had great managers who really encouraged me and we were, they were very supportive and at the beginning of my career, there was really a great sense of team spirit. We were there for each other, even though workload and deadlines were tough and that’s really kept me going, people actually, and team spirit.
Paul Barnhurst
That’s great. And I think that’s true in any field that often, you know, people is one of those things that keep us going beyond just the work, but maybe, you know, Zoe, if you can address a little bit, we talked about kind of the budgeting and manual processes and some of those things.
Zoe Cooke
Yeah. It’s horrible. I don’t think I’ve ever worked anywhere where I’ve been like, wow, this, this system’s really smooth. Everything works perfectly. And even if it does, then by the nature of having something that works, the business usually wants something new or something that doesn’t currently work for you. So then your whole job becomes, how do I solve problems that you know? Or how do I make something that doesn’t exist yet? And, you know, I think that constant need for new data, new information is really tough. I am someone who gets bored very, very, very easily. So, I have always lent on automation in my career because if the computer can do something that I find boring, then I can maybe try and find something that I find interesting. And I kind of try and drill that into my teams.
Zoe Cooke
Um, but it’s not always possible. Right. And sometimes, you know, you end up sitting there doing, doing stuff on Excel that you think like my God, I would never teach someone how to do it this way because it’s totally manual, totally stupid, totally error prone. And that creates its own stress because then you’re like, why can’t I think of a better way to do this? Like I must be stupid. And then you start on your sort of doom spiral of that. So yes, the manual work is always annoying. I also find that once you do something, even if it’s in an incredibly manual way that tends to become the process for doing that thing, even if it’s not the optimum process for doing that thing. And, a lot of the time when I’ve gone into new businesses and kind of interrogated a little bit. Like why do we do this this way?
Zoe Cooke
Increasingly as we have automation and AI come in, there is this kind of approaching storm, that all of our jobs are gonna be completely different in five, or 10 years. And a lot of us are not prepared for it.
Zoe Cooke, FD Director at We are Social
The answer tends to be because we’ve always done it that way. Rather than we have actually found that we’ve actually sat down and thought about it and thought, Hey, there’s a better way we could do this. There’s a smoother way. If we peel back these layers of what we’re doing, we can find the core of what the problem is. And actually there’s a very simple way that we can get a computer to do this. I think one of the things that is also really stressful about what we’re doing is increasingly as we have sort of automation and AI come in, there is this kind of approaching storm, which is that all of our jobs are gonna be completely different in sort of five, 10 years. And a lot of us are not prepared for it. And having this sort of being able to see, not to mix metaphors, but sort of being able to see that cliff coming up and not necessarily knowing whether you’re gonna have a parachute to jump off it or not. It’s really scary, I think, and it can be really stressful to think like, am I gonna be someone who can see a team through, you know, implementing an AI software? Probably not. That’s not my skill set. And yeah, I think that can cause a lot of stress in terms of thinking about the future as well. When, you know, historically finance and accounting have been some of the sort of most stable jobs that you can, that you can have
Paul Barnhurst
No, there’s a lot of things you mentioned there. And I think there is a lot of fear from people that AI will take my job away? How will it change? How do I upskill myself? I mean, the reality is technology is only increasing. It’s getting more rapid, it’s constantly changing and we have to figure out how we can work with it. But you know, that can be a scary thing that can require change. And sometimes we may not feel like, well, maybe that’s not for me, you know, maybe it’s gonna change enough that I don’t wanna do it. And that adds to the stress. So I think that’s a great point there. And the other is, I think we’ve all been there. You open that Excel spreadsheet and you’ve been working in it and you’re like, okay, this is way too manual.
I have to be doing something wrong. How can I automate this? And, you know, as you mentioned, sometimes that can build the spiral because it’s like, well, what, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I figure this out? Some of those types of things. So I appreciate, you know, that answer, appreciate both your answers and just kind of one more question around the kind of burnout and mental health. What advice would you offer to somebody who’s coming into the field of FP&A, you know, just to help them be able to manage the stress that comes with the often long hours, those compressed times around budget, you know. Just maybe ask each of you, if you were to give either yourself or someone coming to the field, starting, what would be the two or three pieces of advice you would give them to try to help maintain that balance, maybe things that have worked for you or that you’ve seen. And so, you know, Zoe will start with you and then we’ll go over to you, Stephanie, on that one.
Zoe Cooke
Yeah. I think really the best advice that I can give to anyone is like, give yourself a break. Like, especially with the sort of forecasting piece, like our job is to try and use math to tell the future, like, is that, is that, is that really realistic? I’m not sure. You know and I think the other side of that is finance, forecasting, and analysis. That is one piece of what the business should be using to be making decisions. So yes, like it’s a really important piece, but you’re never going to get it perfect. You’re never gonna get it right. And, you know, especially, I think I really resonated with what Stephanie was saying earlier about being a perfectionist. And I think when you’ve come up through accounting, especially it’s even more so because, you know, everything has to balance. It has to be to the penny.
It has to be perfect. Otherwise you’ve done it wrong. When you try and take that into FP&A, and forecasting, especially getting over that kind of mindset of actually I’m not gonna get this right. And by nature of me putting something down and saying, this is the forecast, it’s automatically gonna be wrong. Because so much stuff happens outside of our control that unless you actually are able to tell the future, you are going to get it wrong. And you know, it’s not, it’s not the end of the world. You know, it’s not ideal. But it’s not the end of the world.
Paul Barnhurst
Great advice. Remember, it’s not the end of the world. We’re never gonna be perfect. As I’ve heard it said, you know, every model is wrong, some are useful, something said by George Box. And the other one, I say like, when I’ve been really close on a forecast, like I had one time, I think I was within a dollar on something, you know, and I am sitting there, I’m like, you know, dumb luck. Wow. Can you predict the future type of thing? And I’m like, if I could predict the future, I’d be sitting on a beach somewhere as a millionaire. I wouldn’t be working at this job because I would’ve been picking stocks. It’s not about predicting the future. It’s about going through a planning process and helping prepare the business to accomplish its objectives and by trying to predict what’s going to happen helps us figure out how we’re gonna get there.
Yeah. And I think often people forget and they’re like, well, my forecast is off. And of course it’s off. Nobody’s forecast is perfect. Now, you know, if you’re 50% off, you probably need to figure out why. If you’re a couple percent, don’t worry about it. Just, you know, keep doing what you’re doing. That’s pretty close. I think there’s, you know, thresholds to that. So I think that’s great advice because yes, I can remember when I started, like, but I’m off. And then you realize, oh wait, I’m always off. Have I gone through the right process? Have I made the right assumptions? And I love the one that. Give yourself a break, because that’s so important. We can all be so hard on ourselves. Like you both, you know, Stephanie, as you mentioned, is a little bit of a perfectionist. I can be that way as well. You know, it can be very demanding and the hardest criticism on myself. So Stephanie, what’s the advice you would offer?
Do your best. No more, no less. As You said it’s never going to be perfect. It’s never going to be 100% accurate because you cannot predict the future.
Stéphanie Herbots, Former Finance Director
Stephanie
Actually, I fully agree with Zoe. Um, yeah. Do your best. No more, no less. As You said it’s never going to be perfect. It’s never going to be 100% accurate because you cannot predict the future. So yeah, it’s not the end of the world, actually. It isn’t and it’s gonna work out and do your best no more, no less.
Zoe Cooke
I think the only thing that I would add as well is that sometimes it can feel like it’s the end of the world and it’s okay to feel like that as well. It’s, you know, that’s totally valid.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah. I appreciate that, you know, it’s okay. You know, like I said, it’s valid for it to feel like the end of the world. And I think something that’s important to remember is whatever the emotions, whatever you’re feeling, those are valid. You need to allow yourself to fill them and then, you know, work through them. Because if you tell yourself they’re not valid, you’re not acknowledging what’s going on inside. And that’s how we work through things in jobs. So I think that’s great advice. That’s something that’s been hard for me to learn. So I appreciate that one.
So switching gears here, as we kind of move toward the end, I wanna talk a little bit about, a little more about FP&A a little in the finance area. So first we’ll start with Stephanie on this one, but as you looked over your, you know, your finance career, what was something you were most proud of? So if you were gonna go for a finance job today, say you had an interview or something, what’s something you would share that you’re, you know, an accomplishment you’re proud of from your career?
Stephanie
Well, I would say my level of analysis, they were kind of pretty, pretty good. And yeah I was really professional. I didn’t give up.
Paul Barnhurst
No, it’s a good one. Analysis is, I mean, being proud of analysis because we do a ton of that and you know, that can, it can be very hard. How about yourself though? Is there something in your career that stands out to you project or something that you’re really proud of that you did?
We looked at all 800 staff salaries. We were looking at whether there were differences in what people were being paid based on gender, race, sexuality, gender identity, whether they were veterans, you know, huge numbers of demographic data brackets. And, we leveled a whole bunch of people’s pay based on it because what we found was that, you know, naturally a whole lot of, kind of unconscious bias in hiring in terms of representation,
Zoe Cooke FD We are Social
Zoe Cook
Yeah, definitely. Um, I mean last year was such so what are we on now? 2021. So maybe 2021 was such a huge time for everyone. But one of the things that I worked on in that time was my then company’s inclusion, diversity equity and accountability report. And we looked at all 800 staff salaries. We were looking at whether there were differences in what people were being paid based on gender, race, sexuality, gender identity, whether they were veterans, you know, huge numbers of demographic data brackets. And, we leveled a whole bunch of people’s pay based on it because what we found was that, you know, naturally a whole lot of, kind of unconscious bias in hiring in terms of representation, in terms of people being promoted had kind of crept in and that wasn’t what the company wanted. And it was a huge effort. It took the best part of six months and a lot of C-suite, backing to do it as well. But I’m super proud of it because, you know, we saw a problem, we found a way to address it and we kind of made some people’s lives hopefully better by looking at it and took sort of firm steps to kind of instill a sense that people shouldn’t be discriminated against based on anyway that they identify.
Paul Barnhurst
No, that sounds like a great project. And something to be proud of is, you know, the analysis and the work you did made a difference in people’s lives. It helped break down some barriers and discrimination and biases that probably in many cases may even have been unconscious, but it crept in over time.
Zoe Cooke
I think they absolutely were unconscious. Like I can, you know, can certainly say that you know, there, there wasn’t a sense that it was like a company that had issues in that, in any of those spheres. But when we looked at the data, it was like, oh no, actually there is stuff there that needs to be addressed. And it was really interesting for me how you could have a workplace that had a really big kind of culture of inclusivity and diversity and was a global company. And yet you still had this kind of pervasive thing, which no one was doing intentionally, but had just kind of seeped into kind of the decision-making. And I found it so interesting, but also really emotional to work on as well.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah. And, and that makes sense. I could see that, you know, when you mentioned emotional, because it’s something that’s personal. It goes beyond just a budget or a forecast in the sense of how it impacts lives. And I can relate to that. You know, we had a big project where we had to, you know, reduce cost by 20% at the beginning of COVID and you know, working with the business, it was extremely hard knowing it was going to impact people’s lives and trying to figure out what was best for the business. But also as I was going through all that, how can we minimize impact? You know? And there’s some things where we did four day work weeks and different, different things like that. And it wasn’t ideal. It impacted people more than I wanted, but I was proud that I always tried to remember, you know, how we can meet the business needs and trying in my mind to think of how we can least impact people. You know, how can we at least help them get through this as well? Because sometimes they feel diametrically opposed and you’re like, okay, how do I do what my job needs and how do I consider the people? You know? And it’s not always an easy answer. So I think, you know, it’s always rewarding to see when you get to help people.
Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that actually it’s the employees who make the business. So if you’re not looking after your employees and it’s exactly the same with mental health, if you’re not looking after the employees, you’re not looking after your business.
Zoe Cooke, FD We Are Social
Zoe Cooke
Yeah. And I think they’re not on the other ends of the spectrum, right? Like sometimes we lose sight of the fact that actually it’s the employees who make the business. So if you’re not looking after your employees and it’s exactly the same with mental health, if you’re not looking after the employees, you’re not looking after your business. And I think going to some of the stuff Stephanie was saying earlier, like it made me really clear in terms of what I wanted for my career. And one of those was to never work somewhere that didn’t understand that.
Paul Barnhurst
No, thank you. And that’s great advice working somewhere that remembers, you know, people. So I just have two more questions here. We’ll wrap up here in the next couple, couple minutes, but one question we like to ask everybody on the show and we’ll start with you here. Stephanie is just, what’s something unique that people might not find out, find out about you online, something, you know, kind of different that you can share about yourself.
Stephanie
So that’s totally different. But when I was younger, I wanted to be a singer and I even auditioned for The Voice Belgium The Voice many, many years ago.
Paul Barnhurst
Oh wow. That’s a great one.
Stephanie
Yep.
Paul Barnhurst
I bet that was a fun experience for you.
Stephanie
It was fun. And I realized that it wasn’t for me. I was too shy, so…
Paul Barnhurst
Well, it’s, it’s good. You know, it’s good to do those things and realize sometimes that, Hey, maybe that isn’t the path that I want to go. How about yourself, Zoe? What’s something maybe unique you can share?
Zoe Cooke
Oh gosh, I found this a really hard question to think about. I’ll be honest. I think probably people who know me know this, but I’m someone who is always trying to develop new hobbies. So, I always have something like some course on the go or I’m always trying to learn something new. My current one is that I’ve been working on growing a lot of cup flowers and learning a lot of how to do some floristry stuff. So, um, yeah, that’s been my most recent string that’s been added to my bow.
Paul Barnhurst
Well, fun. No, that’s great to always have, you know, a hobby to work on or develop. I think that gives people kind of purpose outside work. Some of us may have a lifelong hobby, some switch a lot. And so I think that’s, you know, flowers and that’s a good one and you know, singing and that’s another good one because I am, I’m a terrible singer. My daughter will actually ask me to stop singing when I start singing. So I appreciate people who can sing. My wife has a beautiful voice, but I am pretty much tone deaf. So, I appreciate that answer. Last question here. And then we’ll let you both go. As you guys know, we’re sponsored by Datarails and here on the podcast, we’re big fans of Excel. You know, the reality is it’s the spreadsheet tool that almost all of us use. I don’t think anyone’s got away with a finance career without using Excel probably more than they would like most days. But that’s another story. So maybe what’s your favorite feature or function in Excel and Zoe will start with you and we’ll give Stephanie a minute to think about that one.
Zoe Cooke
Oh, feature of function? I think feature, probably the what if analysis? Super simple, but really handy. In terms of functions, it’s always gonna be Index Match. It’s the best. It’s the best one. There’s no, no comparison in my mind. There’s not a whole lot that you can’t do with index match or SUMIF, to be honest.
Paul Barnhurst
No, they’re both great functions. I’ve used both of them many times. So thank you. How about yourself, Stephanie?
Stephanie
Well, my favorite one is Pivot Table because I used it a lot for my analysis. I cannot remember a day working without it actually. So yeah, pivot table for me.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah, no, that’s definitely high on my list as well. All of you, all of them, you’ve mentioned I’ve used many times and you know, pivot tables are great for analysis. It’s amazing what you can do with them when you really know how to use them. So I just wanna take a minute and thank both of you for being on the show. I really appreciated what you guys shared, you know, and I just want to tell our audience that, you know, FP&A is a great field to be in. If that’s where you wanna be. There’s a lot of wonderful challenges, a lot of fun. It’s a growing field. And just remember that, you know, if you are dealing with difficult times, there is always help. Whether it be mental illness that has nothing to do with work, just something that could be brought on by personal life, by, you know, family situation, your heredity, whatever it may be, that there is help out there.
Paul Barnhurst
And if it’s burnout, you’re dealing with, remember, you know, that you can talk to people, family, you know, managers work. Just know the most important thing in any job and just in life is taking care of yourself. And so we hope, you know, that our audience finds this useful. And I really appreciate what you shared. Because I know I learned some things and just want to say thank you for being on the show and wish both of you a great, I think evening as it’s coming toward the end of your guys’ day over there in Europe, I’m just getting started. So, but thanks again for being on the show.
Stephanie
Thanks for having us.
Zoe Cooke
Thank you.