From Camp Taji in Iraq, to Will Wheaton’s narration of Ready Player One, this is the story of Frank Aburto who helped build Financial Planning and Analysis (FP&A) at Audible. Hear his story on FP&A Today (full episode and links below).
Frank Aburto, senior Director of Finance at Audible, leads strategic finance and FP&A at the audio storytelling subsidiary of Amazon.
In his role, Aburto supports more than 150 partners across marketing and product where the FP&A function has been central to Audible’s success in reaching millions of listeners around the world and becoming the largest player in the audiobook market (sales of audiobooks hit $1.8 billion in the US alone in 2022).
In this episode:
- How the military veteran applied his strategic skills learnt in Iraq, Hawai, and South Korea to finance and business
- Building FP&A at Audible through the “lens of the customer”
- The one trait he looks for in a finance hire
- Why understanding customers matters more than P&L metrics
- The power of investment banking as a route to FP&A and finance leadership
- Using SQL to get ahead in your career
- Recommendations for your next Audible book
- How to get a finance job at Audible or Amazon
FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails.
Follow and connect with Frank Aburto: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fcaburto/
Watch the Full YouTube episode: https://youtu.be/9w-MfrBN6K0
Full transcript:
Paul Barnhurst:
Today. Hello everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka the FP&A Guy. FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis. Today we are delighted to be joined by Frank Aburto. Frank, thanks for joining us.
Frank Aburto:
Thanks for having me, Paul. Really excited to sit down and chat.
Paul Barnhurst:
Same here. I’m really excited. So, just lemme give a little bit of an introduction from Frank. Frank comes to us from New Jersey, New York area. He currently works as a senior director of finance at Audible. He earned his bachelor of Science in Asian Studies from West Point. He earned an MBA from Cornell and a master of Accounting from Rutgers. So that’s just a little bit about Frank here. In a minute we’ll give him an opportunity to tell us more about his background, but we’re gonna start with a fun question we’d like to ask everybody. ’cause If you’ve worked in finance, especially FP&A, we all have our horror stories. So what was the most challenging kind of budgeting, forecasting experience you’ve ever had?
Frank Aburto:
Well, Paul, I, I joined Audible back in 2016 and within, I wanna say three months, still learning, the company is still learning the KPIs. We embarked on a major product initiativecomprising of maybe 15, 20 different items that all needed to be sized forecast and included into the forecast for the following year. So I, not only was I still learning the company, still learning the people, still learning how everybody interacted with the the app, but I was responsible for a major portion of what was going into the 2017 budget. So as a brand new employee it was, it was slightly terrifying, but it was a really good experience being thrown into the deep end and having to learn and survive.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I think we probably all have some experience like that where it’s like, all right, here, you get to figure all this out. You’re like, wait a second, I don’t even know where the bathroom is. How do you expect me to figure out all these numbers? So what was the kind of the key learning or takeaway from that experience for you?
Frank Aburto:
This really helped me developing my business partnership. It was understanding exactly what product and tech technology teams do, understanding how the marketers are going out to potential customers and current customers, and how they’re getting engaged. So it was really tying everything together that, let’s say I didn’t learn in investment banking to understand and look at the company through the lens of the customer and what’s best for their engagement and their entertainment.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. No, it makes a lot of sense. It’s so important to understand that customer and have that customer lens. So could you just give us a little bit about your background, you know, how you ended up where you’re at today, and a little bit about your journey?
Frank Aburto:
Yeah, sure. So four years of West Point, and then I started in the Army. I did five years therestationed in South Korea and then Hawaii, which no one ever complains about. Did at the tail end of my career, I did a 15 month tour in Iraq. When I came back, I started looking for alternatives. I, I realized I, I probably wouldn’t stay in the army, and I wanted to see what career might interest me. I realized giving a background in Asian studies probably was not going to land a technical role. And so business school was the best option for me. I had a close friend who was at Cornell a couple of close friends actually, and I spoke to them, learned about the program, applied and, and went that following year. So I, I settled on investment banking as my first career, just because you learn so much.
You learn about strategy, you learn about finance, you learn about accounting. You’re, you’re really drinking from the fire hose, so to speak on what you need to be doing, how you’re gonna do it, and how accurate slash precise it needs to be. After a few years of that, I really wanted to help companies drive strategy and react to what customers are doing, and other, I don’t wanna say threats in the market, but changes in the market. I realized I couldn’t really, I couldn’t do that as a banker. So I was, there was somebody who was working at Audible spoke to them and understood that they were looking for a finance senior manager. So I applied there, went through the interview process, and seven and a half late years later, here I am leading the strategic finance team.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. Well, thank you for sharing that story. I appreciate it. And, you know, kind of a few follow up. First all, you know, kind of start with the military, you know, again, thanks for serving, but what are maybe two or three key lessons you took from your, your time in the military in West Point that make you a better finance professional today?
Frank Aburto:
So, I, I think it’s a, it’s a framework for problem solving. So West Point and your officer basic courses do a really great job of preparing you to be a platoon leader leading your soldiers, right out of joining a unit where you’re less prepared is when you become, let’s say, a company executive officer or a logistics officer, an operations officer, and you’re faced with problems, especially in Iraq that don’t really come out of the textbook. And so you have to understand what are we trying to achieve here? What’s the task and purpose? What’s the objective? And then come up with ideas on how to, how to get there. How do you do that in an efficient way, in an effective way? What could be sacrificed between those two items. Having that military background really helps me out when I’m looking at something and thinking, how can I allocate my team’s work against this in time and how can we do this in the most effective way to give my CFO what she needs to understand to make a decision.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really like that. I appreciate you sharing that. And there’s something to be said there of trying to kind of optimize the time spent. Being as effective as possible because we have enough tasks often that are manual that are challenging. If we don’t find ways to be effective ourself, it only compounds the problem.
Frank Aburto:
Exactly.
Paul Barnhurst:
And you mentioned a little bit kind of how you ended up at Audible, but can you talk a little bit kind of how Audible thinks about FP&A, maybe a little of, you know, how the organization, like what, what all do you manage or just a little bit about that.
Frank Aburto:
Yeah, so when I joined the, the team was very small and in, in my interview with the CFO at the time, I specifically asked her, what is, what is your vision for this role going forward? And her response was, you can make this role to whatever you want it to be. So what I wanted it to be was the strategic partner to, at first I was working with the marketing team, and then it became the product team. And so how we look at the business is really through the lens of the customer, as I mentioned before, what are we trying to do? How are we make this the most entertaining audio platform bar none. And how do we make sure that people can find the content that they, they love and come back to find more. So, we’re looking at the different customer journeys that individual customers or even prospects have. We’re understanding from a UX perspective, what makes an app easy. How do we, how does that impact your KPIs, which impacts your financial model, which impacts your P&L? So it’s a couple different things there. It’s not your traditional, here’s your variance, here’s what happened. It’s, let’s understand everything about the business and really be that trusted partner.
Paul Barnhurst:
I love the term trusted partner and help strategically. I think, you know, a huge part of FP&A is understanding the business and it’s becoming much more strategic commercial in nature. You know, I used to refer to it, you know, in the early days it was what I called FP and R,, financial planning and reporting. You put together a hundred page deck and somebody might’ve looked at it.
Frank Aburto:
Right.
Paul Barnhurst:
And now they really look to us as advisors or in forward thinking companies they do. And you’re seeing more and more CFOs come from fp and a. So I really like how you talked about that. ’cause I’m totally with you. That is just so, so important. So, you Know, talking about fp a, what are the organizations you support today? Who, what, you know, kind of, what groups do you support? You support the whole business? Are there certain kind of departments or how does that work?
Frank Aburto:
So, product, product management the growth team, so including paid media and product marketing. So it’s, it’s, it’s a fairly large organization, but it’s all of the, all the teams that are interacting, or their work, I should say, interacts directly with the customer. So changes would be seen right away in how customers are using the product, using the app which translates to work impacts that we would see on the P&L
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. All right. So that makes sense. A lot of products, and there’s some marketing in there. And what do you feel are the most important skills you and your team need to meet the, the business’ needs?
Frank Aburto:
Intellectual curiosity. So as I’ve built the team out over the past seven years, one of the biggest things I look for in an interview is somebody who is approaching the problem to say, not just here, what, here’s what the number is telling me, and here’s what my model is saying, but does this make sense? Or if we’re gonna make a recommendation to the business, would somebody shop this way? And, and understanding the lens of the customer, what matters I think is huge. Finance and accounting skills, obviously those are the building blocks of, of the the positions. But without that additional lens, you’re just not adding that high level impact that you could be. That really helps some of your partners say, I didn’t, I didn’t think about it like that. And let, let’s, let’s try that and let’s try it, let’s try to see what the customers think about it.
Paul Barnhurst:
So I love the intellectual curiosity, and I like what you said about the customer. So it kinda led me to a follow-up question here. How do you help your team really get to know the customer? What are you doing to make sure your people in finance, right? We look at numbers a lot, we’re managing the P&L, all things. How do you make sure they get, gain that appreciation and understanding of the customer?
Frank Aburto:
So a, a few different ways. One of the biggest I think, is making sure that our team’s actually using the product. And you’d be surprised how many finance professionals and various companies aren’t using the products that they’re, they’re assisting with. In, in our case, we are all very dedicated listeners. And when there’s something that goes right for us, we understand, okay, this, this made it easy, this made it easier to sign up, this made it easier to find content that I would never would’ve found, or this just this made it so if I’m on the go, I can pop my headphones in this two seconds for me to be listening and enjoying myself as opposed to longer. But I, I think making sure that you’re using the product and then understanding what products and marketing teams actually do. So for a lot of us, we had no idea what product marketing or product management did not, not because it’s nebulous, just because we, we weren’t exposed to that before. Mm-Hmm.
Paul Barnhurst:
<Affirmative>.
Frank Aburto:
So I, we actually, you know, our entire team went to an online product management course. And so we’re not experts now. Sure. But we, we speak the language better than we did before that course. Understand customer journey, the product roadmap, why a product manager would do X versus y, what the different considerations are there. And so it’s, it’s really being able to get out there with your partners and I’ll, I’ll use a military term here to get out there and wait in hearts and minds. We’re here to support you. We’re not here to check your budget or to tell you that this isn’t gonna work. We’re, we’re here to help think through this from a different perspective.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really love the part there where we’re, we’re here to help support you, you know, not to kind of make sure you’re following the budget, so to speak, and that everything’s in line. Yes. If we’re supporting you properly and you know the business is running the way it should, the financials will take care of themselves to a certain extent.
Frank Aburto:
Exactly. I mean,
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, obviously we have to make smart decisions with that, but that really goes from understanding the customer and being strategic. Not from understanding the p and l per se.
Frank Aburto:
Exactly.
Paul Barnhurst:
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You know how closely, I’m just curious, do you work with the, the business on those strategic and operational decisions? Like are you, you know, closely involved in the different projects and things going on? Or how do they utilize you for those?
Frank Aburto:
So very close, very closely involved. If there’s a standup meeting, it would besurprising to not have one of my team members there. In fact with with different marketing slash growth team members and different product team members, they all have developed different relationships with my team. And so they will have a trusted go-to person where they will say, I’m having this meeting and this person needs to be there. And so we’re involved from start to finish what’s sitting down for ideation, offering our opinion, which is another important thing that we, not just that we have a seat at the table, but our voice is heard and respected at which it is at Audible. And to a certain point, ’cause we’ve demonstrated that we are here to help, we are here to help think through and not just be the team that just give us the inputs, we’re gonna hit F9, here’s your output. It works or it doesn’t work. Right. We’re so we are, we’re closely tied into that. We’re closely tied in with strategy team members as they work through long-term plans for the company.
Paul Barnhurst:
Now I know I have a little bit of an Excel geek ’cause you said hitF9.
Frank Aburto:
Yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
Anyone in finance will appreciate that, right? So we’ve all been there. What I was gonna say is so true that when they’re in the meetings, I’ve worked for, you know, a number of different companies and I remember one when I first joined finance was in none of the sales meetings. We were given all the numbers. I asked to join them and like, oh, we’ll just give you access to our tool. Like would never even invite me to any of the calls where on other ones I’m on all the calls. They would call me when they were working on certain deals that may not have made sense financially or wanted to get my thoughts and we’d work through ’em. And just seeing how different that relationship was and the challenges it created in the business, it made it really hard to be that strategic partner when you could clearly tell, and I’ve had other roles like that where, hey, finance is someone we have to deal with, but we really don’t want ’em in the room.
Frank Aburto:
Yeah. But luckily we do not have that at Audible. Everybody’s very open and very supportive of each other, but specifically with finance they understand how we can bring value to their work. And frankly, we, you know, we, we get out there and the work we do, we wins friends. They respect what we do. They respect us as professionals, not just because we can add up the numbers properly, but because we are, we’re trying to help them. We’re all here to support the business. We’re also here to support each other and let’s make sure this works. Let’s make sure what you’re trying to do is set up for success and is as clear as possible when you’re sitting down in front of a chief product officer, chief financial officer, chief growth officer, and, and explaining why your project should have priority over another. You definitely need us in your corner for that. And they, I think they definitely appreciate some of the, the support as well as some of the rehearsals that we do. Someone will ask this question, let’s make sure you’re ready to answer it. Here’s, here’s some backup information for that.
Paul Barnhurst:
I love that. And couldn’t agree more. It, it’s so much of more enjoyable and just healthier for the business and not just people, but financial in, in every way. When you have that true partnership going on and you have those relationships where finance is seen as a value add versus a back office kind of support function, so to speak. And so speaking to that, you mentioned how, you know, you’re very much involved in the strategic and the op, the strategic and operational side of the business. Maybe can you talk to an example of a strategic project you worked with on the business and kind of the role finance played?
Frank Aburto:
Well, some of the things in the, in the past few years have been some of the updates that we’ve done to the app. So if, if you’re an audible listener, you and an iOS user, you know that you’re able to sign up through iOS app now. And so my team and I were very closely involved with the marketing org, with the product org on how we understood what the benefits were and the pros, the cons, how that launch could go and what we could be expecting from it. And so it really was sitting down with our business intelligence team understanding if this is the benchmark, KPI, where we are now, and talking to the product managers, where do you want to take this? What is possible? Making sure that we’re connecting the dots between those teams as well and the growth teams to say, here’s here’s a realistic forecast that we can show you on what we anticipate. So it’s, you’re a bridge, you’re a connector you obviously understand what is good for the customer and why you would do that, and then articulate this in a, a very clear package that you’re bringing up to company leadership.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. Thank you. I appreciate the example and I’m sure we have some listeners that are big Audible fans and we’ll be able to relate to that one. I will say I’ve listened to a little bit on Audible, but not a lot myself. My wife does listen from time to time. She does it a lot more than I do, but so appreciate that one. You know, next one is you look at your team and just kind of, you know, the environment in finance. What would you say is the biggest opportunity and maybe the biggest challenge you’re facing?
Frank Aburto:
I think the biggest opportunity is when you look at technology that is coming out now. And so whether that, whether that’s AI, which everyone is talking about <laugh> or even just new, new programs that you can insert into Excel and change, either the way you’re looking at data, the way you’re running an analysis. I think those opportunities are really, they provide a more robust path for the finance professional because you’re able to upscale when you, when you add in SQL, when you add in Tableau and think about how you can tell a story from start to finish for an executive level meeting. The opportunities there are immense and it really provides a lot of runway for let’s say, you know, your, your juniors or your recent MBA graduates to be, to carry that message, be able to present that clearly and have that understanding, especially with tools that make it much simpler than having to run through cases on your own in Excel, like might’ve done decade or so ago.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. And so I’m curious, is there anything, I mean obviously we’ve seen a lot of ai, but any kind of tool that you’ve seen over the last years, last year or so that has, you’re really excited or anything you’re looking at and thinking, Hey, that will really help us be more productive that you’re seeing out there?
Frank Aburto:
I think just for myself, I, I’ve really, I I’ve really been diving into just SQL and Tableau, which somebody might say that’s, that seems pretty basic, but what, when you look at the, the platforms, they’re incredibly powerful with what you can show and how you can manipulate data in a way that just reveals certain patterns and trends that if you’re staring at a spreadsheet, you’re definitely not going to see it. And more importantly or most importantly, allows your audience to see that. And I think that’s the most important part. When you put it in front of CEO or his or her directs, you get the question, wow, this is insightful. Instead of the question of maybe, what am I looking at here? Like, it speaks for itself.
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, and as I hear you say that, you know, whether it be Tableau, power, bi Looker, Domo, whatever visualization tool you’re using, there really are some great things you can get from understanding those from moving beyond Excel and being able to do some of those analysis. And I, I really like that you mentioned SQL because you know, I’m, I’m a proponent that people should at least understand the basics of sql. Sql. I don’t think you need to be deep and writing complex statements, but I did report writing for about a year, year and a half before I moved into an FP&A role. And it was incredibly valuable in my career to be able to query something from the database if I needed. And it was a natural, it made it easy to learn Power Query and make that bridge. So I was able to transform and pull data and get insights that other people on my team couldn’t because they didn’t have that skillset. Yes, they were good in Excel. Yeah, they could put together a chart, but it just takes some things to that next level. At least that’s what I’ve found. Is that kind of your experience?
Frank Aburto:
It is. Because if you, if you really wanna differentiate yourself and when, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of the CFO roles are coming from FP&A, it, it allows you to dig deeper and really think about strategy. So you’re combining your knowledge of the P&L, your knowledge of the customer, and then enhancing that knowledge of the customer with a very in-depth understanding of their actions because of all the data. When when you provide all that, that, that makes it very easy for a CFO to step up to become a COO or even a CEO. And I think it’s incredibly powerful for, for people earlier in your career because it, it really makes you a very well-rounded finance professional that is able to say, here’s how we can help set the direction, strategic direction of the company, or even tactical direction for certain items. And that is really adding value and, and really supporting the business.
Paul Barnhurst:
I agree, and I like how you said, you know, kinda helps prepare your CFO or COO ’cause we’re definitely seeing a lot more of that where, you know, CFO, especially smaller companies, they also have COO responsibility or, you know, people from finance and FP&A making that switch. Maybe you’ll go over to revenue operations or sales operations because if you’re good FP&A, you’re gonna understand operational metrics, you’re gonna understand some of that operation of the business because it’s really hard to make good advice, strategic advice without understanding that. And so I think, you know, puts finance in a great position as you move up in your career.
Frank Aburto:
As I heard one person put It, you know, FP&A is the only place outside of the CEO and the CFO that gets a 360 view of the business and they get it from two lenses, they get it from a financial and they get to see it from the business lens, the operational lens. And that’s just incredibly valuable.
I I, I totally agree, and that’s what has made the past seven years at Audiblefantastic for me being able to have that perspective and really understand how a business of this size, size is run and how it grows.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. Yeah, no, it sounds like you’ve probably seen a ton of growth and change over those seven years, I’m guessing.
Frank Aburto:
Yes, and especially when you, when you look at with the pandemic and people trying to find ways to entertain themselves, like streaming became and listening and it became a pastime, especially in the early days, which, because what else were you going to do? And so it’s understanding that growth and how to keep that growth trend going.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, the, the pandemic changed so much and I think many tech companies have, I will say, struggled to a certain extent to figure out how they keep the growth going. You know, some overhired just trying to figure it all out because it’s, it’s a new world, even though, yeah, it’s the same world, but things have changed and there’s some things that fundamentally will never be the same after Covid, I think.
So, so I’m curious, you know, as you, you look at the business and just kind of in general, are there favorite metrics you like to look at to help you understand things? Maybe if, you know either kind of financial or operational, but just some metrics that really help you know, how things are doing?
Frank Aburto:
So I, I think at a high level, one of the things that my team really zeros in on is just how our customers are engaging with the product. And so we, we want to understand that because understand, if, if you’re not using the product, if you’re not listening, if you’re not finding what you want, why would you stay? And so for us looking at that really give, it’s, it’s the voice of the customer without let’s say a, a research session or feedback session. Like they’re telling us what they’re doing and how they value the product with their actions. And so when we understand that we have a better sense of where first, the value we’re, we’re bringing to their lives, how they’re using the product. But two, it helps us zero in on where there are opportunities where we can advise our partners to say, if we see this, this might be an idea. Or this leads us to believe X, here’s some potentials, or let’s talk through this. And so what, we’ve had a lot of good discussions just looking at that and bringing that back to our product teams or to our our product managent and marketing teams to really understand what do you recommend? How should we interpret this? Where should we go from here?
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And you know, as you were talking about that, what it made me think, think about, and it sounds like you’re really big on, you know, looking at the operational metrics and those leading indicators, whether that leading indicator, you know, whatever it might be that helps you give a trend like, okay, we’re seeing people start to drop off on their time. There’s an issue here, or we’re starting to see something different with this app or that app. And you know, I’m a huge believer that finance should be helping understand those leading and those operational metrics. Right? I didn’t hear you anywhere in there say, well, I’m looking at EBITDA and our expense ratio and all these things on the P&L and I see you kind of even laughing as they say that. So I’ll let you kind of talk to that.
Frank Aburto:
So we do, we do spend, we do spend a considerable amount of time on that, especially as you know, when you close the books at the end of the month and understand that you, you’re getting leadership up to speed with what happened. But I think all of that is rooted in the customer behavior, those leading indicators. And if I think you would be doing leadership disservice, and I think for future FP&A professionals out there who may be listening, if you’re bringing only the perspective of the P&L, the balance sheet, the cash flow statement, you’re really bringing only half of the story. ’cause You wouldn’t have any of those things without the customers. So you really need to understand the customers
Paul Barnhurst:
Agree. You know, the, the financials are a, as a general rule, they’re a lagging indicator. We need to, we need to look at em, we need to look at ’em closely, we need to understand them. But if we’re looking at all the other metrics and we understand our business, we’ll be less surprised with what we see in the financials, right? They’re, we’re always gonna get some surprises. There’s accounting adjustments, different things that we just didn’t know were coming. But I think the more and more, you know, the business and the customer, the easier it is to kind of understand and see what’s coming from a financial standpoint. Would you agree with that?
Frank Aburto:
100%. It shouldn’t be a surprise at the end of it.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And it’s always fun when it is, and then you gotta go dig through it and figure out what happened, <laugh>. So what is it that you love about FP&A, I mean, what’s made you decide to work in FP&A compared to other parts of finance? Because I’m sure you’ve probably had some opportunities. So what’s, you know, kept you with fp and a?
Frank Aburto:
It’s, it’s really helping to steer the direction of the business. When, when you’re understanding what the goals are for maybe a long range plan, how you get there, it’s, you’re really filling in the blanks of what you could do what has worked in the past, what is, let’s say, a total moonshot, what it’s a good idea and let’s try it out articulating that risk. But most of all, it’s really helped me to understand customer behavior. And so when something in the economy, I’m frankly not surprised by it because of the leading indicators, right? Understanding ways Audible customers engage with the product gives me a better sense of how other customers engage elsewhere. Whether it be another entertainment service, whether it be something as simple as just retail stores. It’s understanding what, how do they perceive value? Are there different price points? What matters to them? How are they finding that? And I don’t, I don’t know that I would really get that in, in many other areas of finance, but some of them, some of them are frankly limited. And not in a bad way, but you’re, if you’re focusing on certain things, you, you don’t always get a good sense of that. And for people who do enjoy those things, that’s fantastic. I found that this was something that I enjoyed that got me out of bed every morning in a hurry, start learning some more.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And, and that’s all we want is, you know, get outta bed and enjoy what we’re doing. And like you said, you know, if you want a role that maybe is more process or you see a smaller scope, nothing wrong with that. But then that may not be FPA, maybe it’s better to be in an accounting role where it’s very more processed. The example I share on this is I had this great accountant that supported me. He was really knowledgeable, did a fabulous job, and I was hiring an analyst and I’m like, Hey, you interested in the job? He’s like, no, no, no. He’s like, I don’t like dealing with that fuzzy math and making up numbers. He’s like, I’m an accountant. I know what it’s all gonna be. I understand the numbers and this is what I like. I’m like, fine enough. You do a great job. I won’t ask again. But yeah, it was just kind of funny ’cause he’s like, I did it for like a year and I just felt like I was dealing with made up numbers and I kinda laughed and we moved on.
Frank Aburto:
Yeah. I, I can see that. And I definitely understand that.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And so, you know, kinda step back here for just one second. I was gonna ask a question we talked about in investment banking, you know, one thing I was gonna say and get your thoughts, it feels like we’re seeing a lot of people that when they leave investment banking similar to, you know, kind of auditing, you leave it moving into either FP&A these days or kind of consulting, do you feel like investment banking, you mentioned a little bit, but it’s kind of a natural transition to move into FP&A when you wanna start to know the business better. You’ve dealt a lot with, you know, kind of numbers and seeing the other side, but your thoughts of kind of that path for people, do you think that’s a good, good path?
Frank Aburto:
I, I think it, I think it is, and I, again, obviously it depends on the individual, but what you’re seeing as a junior banker, you, you’re sitting down with the managing directors and clients, whether it be a CFO, treasurer, a head of corporate development slash corporate strategy. But you’re understanding the motivations behind why a company would either buy or sell either itself or a subsidiary or why they would raise debt through equity or, or, sorry, raise capital through equity or debt. And so when, when you have all of this in perspective and you’re hearing it directly from Fortune 500 companies, if you’re in bulge bracket, it, it really gives you a solid basis for understanding why companies do what they do. The thought process, and again, going back to it, that framework. And so if, if running the company and helping to, to set that strategic direction is something that appeals to you. It, it’s just a natural fit. You, you’re, if you’re, if you’re a successful banker at at that level, you know your accounting, you know your finance, you’re probably fast in Excel you’ve probably put together decks that make sense, that are clear that CFOs and treasurers can read, which means within your first few months, you’re able to put something in front of your, your managers and the bosses that is compelling, that shows you understand not just the business, but the environment you’re working in.
Paul Barnhurst:
Again, I appreciate that answer and that, that was kind of my thinking. And so you helped clarify that. Obviously I didn’t come from investment banking. Yeah. I started my career in procurement and then went to grad school and then switched to, you know, finance and so, you know, a little bit of a different journey. So I was just kind of curious your take on that. So, you know, next question here. As you look back over your career and this can, you know, it could be in the military, it could be work, you know, wherever you wanna share, what’s the accomplishment you’re most proud of? What’s something you would share if I asked you that question in a job interview?
Frank Aburto:
Oh, that’s a great question. The one that stands out for me was when I was actually in the military. So we, we were stationed in Camp Taji from 2007 to 2009. And I I was a logistics officer for the cavalry squadron that I was a part of, no real training as a logistics officer. And I was responsible for also constructing or designing concrete checkpoints along major highways in our area. I didn’t really have a lot of mechanical or civil engineering training slash any, but I knew where to find the help and I knew how to ask people in a way that helped them understood what I was ask what I needed from them, and that I had put in the work ahead of time. So the team and I designed a concrete checkpoint just north of Baghdadthat would allow soldiers to stay safe, but allow us to control traffic in a way that we can stop and inspect cars.
So at one point we were able to stop and arrest a major bomb maker who was heading from Baghdad North. I wasn’t on the scene, but I was in our our tactical operation center watching this unfold through a drone. And one, it was, it was really awesome seeing that happen. But two, it was fantastic that that was a design that the team and I had worked on with as a New Jersey native slightly has some inspiration from the the tolls on the Garden State Parkway. It just had to effectively shut down traffic <laugh>. But it was, it was cool to see that just because that’s a problem, that’s the problem solving. I was discussing for what’s my objective here, how do I achieve this? What is a good way to do it, how do I do that with the materials I have?
Because I wasn’t going to a major construction company here in the northeast and saying, I need this entire bill of materials. I was finding what was out there and I was getting it out there in a way that had other considerations. Again, you’re, you’re driving down a highway in Iraq in 2007 to 2009, you just don’t put trucks on the highway without realizing you could be risking someone’s life. Looking back on it, over my past, almost 20 years since west Point graduation, I’ll always come back to that one just because of all the intricacies and that, that success that we had.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I can only imagine how rewarding that was to know you were able to capture a bomb maker and save people’s lives. I mean, you know, that’s, there’s work and then there’s life. And when you know you’re able to do work that saves people’s lives, there’s just a different level of rewarding. Not that work can’t make people’s lives better, but I could just see how that’s very meaningful. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing that and I’m, I’m glad it worked as well as it did. That had to be a very rewarding moment, seeing that kind of come to fruition and watching that unfold.
Frank Aburto:
It did. And I think just to, to close that one out, it’s, it’s a very high bar to clear when I think about all the amazing stuff that we’ve done at Audible or I’ve done in my finance career which I, I have some very great stories and my team and I have done some fantastic work. It’s really hard to compare to that one though.
Paul Barnhurst:
Totally agree. I mean, there’s just a difference. Yeah.
Frank Aburto:
Even
Paul Barnhurst:
If it’s like, Hey, we made the, the listening experience easier for people, that’s great, but it’s, there’s just a different level. So I, I can, I can see that. So speaking of Audible and listening, what do you currently have on, on Audible going today? What’s your book you’re listening to?
Frank Aburto:
So, I went down a rabbit hole of classics of science fiction very recently. And so I just finished the original the Android’s Dream of Electric Sheep. So Blade Runner fantastic story. Narration was really good, but as, as you sit there listening and I, I tend to listen while I’m running and the story I’m sitting here contemplating what, what it means to be human while I’m at four miles into a run. But it, it is just a fantastic story.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. Appreciate that. So do you have a, maybe a favorite one you’ve listened to on Audible or even just a favorite book that’s helped you in your career?
Frank Aburto:
Favorite book on Audible, hands down. Ready Player onenarrated by Will Wheaton, first of all, it’s child of the Child of the eighties. I got all the references. Will Wheaton’s a fantastic narrator too. Anytime I get to listen to something that he’s narrated, whether it’s a good story or not so great story, I’ll listen to it just ’cause he’s a great he’s a great narrator. When I think about some of the books that I have to, that I look, that I’ve read over the course of my time that have helped my career, there are a couple ones from the military that have really been helpful, like, on leadership just to, when I think about how I work with my team and, and what I want to do in terms of their development, the opportunities they receive and how they should be getting the credit for the work they do in front of leaders. I think, I think a lot of those books that are on, let’s say the superintendent or the commandant’s list from West Point have really helped me in bringing that leadership and management style to my team. And so I, I guess short answer is there may be too many to actually list <laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Fair enough. I mean, it sounds like you’re an avid reader and listener from what I’m hearing, and you love learning from books. So we could see the collection there behind you, I think on your Yeah, on my right there. And yeah, as you mentioned, you sounds like you do a fair amount of running, so you get some listening time. If, if you’re four miles in, you’re doing some pretty good runs. I’ve, I’ve run a few marathons, so I know a little bit about running, so I can relate to that one a little bit. So, you know, as we we’re nearing end over time, we’re gonna move into what we call the Get to know you section here in a minute. But one more question before we do that. So lots of people are big fans of Amazon and Audible. I know there are a lot of people that’d like to work there. Any advice for somebody looking to, you know, get a job in finance or FP&A with, with Amazon?
Frank Aburto:
I think going back to what I said before, that intellectual curiosity. When when you’re looking at a problem when you’re helping the business work through something that will benefit the customer, it’s, it’s more than just being able to do the numbers and the accounting is correct. And, and you’re, you’re calculations make sense. It’s really tying that back to how does this work for the customer? How does this work for the company? And if you’re, if you’re in the interview, you need to be able to clearly articulate that and show examples. Because we’re always asking why, why? Let’s go one more level, let’s dive deeper. What are the root causes of this and what can we infer from ’em?
Paul Barnhurst:
Okay. So it sounds like really having that curiosity to, to dig deep and to be able to un understand something at that kind of fourth, fifth level if you talk about the five why’s, not just here’s the surface.
Frank Aburto:
Exactly.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. So here, this is a section I really like. It’s called our Get to Know You section. You get no more than 30 seconds to answer each question. So the idea is to, you know, relatively brief and we just kind of run through these. So I have four of them. And so the first one is, what is something interesting about you that not many people would know? Something we wouldn’t find online,
Frank Aburto:
Something that we wouldn’t find online. So I’ve always been an avid drawer, so I’ll I’ll any chance I get, I’m, I’m pulling out a pencil, I’m, I’m doodling. It’s been doodling since I was a a kid. So even now, even in the margins of some of the notes that I take at work, you’ll see some doodles just to keep my brain fresh.
Paul Barnhurst:
Love it. Thank you for sharing that one. So next one, if you could meet one person in the world, dead or alive, who would you meet and why?
Frank Aburto:
I’ll answer this from a finance perspective. So I think I would like to hear from the original JP Morgan. So wanna understand, like tell me about what you did that helped the direct the, the direction of the nation in a time when we needed finance most.
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, that’s the first time I’ve heard someone say JP Morgan. I love that. I love that answer. From a finance perspective, that’s a, that’s a great one. So next one here, and I’m gonna modify the question a little bit, I think from what I sent you, but what is the last thing you Googled looked up on YouTube or use generative AI chat, GPT or any of these others that are coming out? It seems every day to, you know, that you use to research something around finance FP&A or Excel.
Frank Aburto:
So for that one, I think I was trying to do something with a very complicated listing and I think, I think it was some kind of array formula to give me some returns. And it was at, it was very complex. And, and YouTube did a really good job explaining it to me and I did a very poor job implementing it into my Excel.
Paul Barnhurst:
I, I’m laughing ’cause I can relate on more than one level, both watching the YouTube and doing a poor job of implementing it. Yeah. <laugh>. So kind of speaking of that, Excel, what’s your favorite function or feature? What’s your favorite thing about Excel?
Frank Aburto:
So I think my favorite function, I, I think I’m an indirect lover just so I can plug in all the different things there, go find matches across this massive database, return the rows and columns and, and give me all these items. Maybe that’s just a, a holdover from my banking days from spreading public comps. But I found that I’m able to use that still to this day to give me some some returns that make data presentation just that much easier.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, there is some pretty amazing things you can do with indirect and if you know how to use it and you use it sparingly so your file isn’t full of volatile references, it can be a great tool.
Frank Aburto:
Yes,
Paul Barnhurst:
I I I am an indirect fan, so I get that one. So we’re heading up here to just kind of wrap up. So we have two questions for you. The first is, what advice would you offer for someone starting a career in FP&A today? If you give ’em some advice, what would it be?
Frank Aburto:
Hands down. Know your accounting and finance cold. Just, that’s, that’s the, those are table stakes. But the advice that I have that will really differentiate junior team members is have that framework for problem solving? What am I trying to solve? Why does it matter to my stakeholders? And how do I present this in a way that makes sense? ’cause That’s where it ties because all of your accounting, your finance, your Excel skills, your chat, GP, all the stuff that you could use, if you’re not clear on that, you’re providing a really cool chart that probably misses the marker.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really like that is kind of understanding. It’s being, it’s the, it’s the application layer, so to speak. It’s know, know the technicals, know the base that you need to do the job and know it well.
Frank Aburto:
Exactly.
Paul Barnhurst:
Then you know how to bring it together to, to solve problems. You know, I I’ve heard it sometimes said a little bit you said is, you know, it’s the what, so what now, what?
Frank Aburto:
Exactly
Paul Barnhurst:
Kind of framework, right? There’s plenty of them out there, but it’s, it’s all that, that I idea. So last question. If someone wants to get ahold of you, what would be the best way for them to connect with you?
Frank Aburto:
So I’m a prolific connector on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, drop a note, have some patience there. I get quite a few inmails on a daily basis. But yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the best. I’m more than happy to chat with people about careers, about working at Audible, Amazon. Many different things.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right. Well thank you so much for being on the show today, Frank. We really enjoyed chatting with you and I know our audience will enjoy listening to this. So thanks for being on FP&A Today.
Frank Aburto:
Thanks again for having me, Paul. I really appreciate it.