Lance Rubin is one of the world’s leading experts on financial models, creator of thousands of models and has literally written the instruction manual on financial modeling as a certified trainer for the Financial Modeling Institute. In this wide ranging interview Lance reveals the secrets to successful financial modeling:
-How to Instantly Improve your Financial Modeling
-Why you need to build and Treat a Financial Model like your House
-The Best Resources to Learn better Financial Models
-How to achieve Better Storytelling in FP&A, and bringing Emotion to the Numbers
-The power of non-financial data to change your models
FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails.
Paul Barnhurst
Hello, everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst AKA the FP&A Guy and you are listening to FP&A Today. FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week, we will welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis and discuss some of the biggest stories and challenges in the world of FP&A and we’ll provide you with actionable advice about financial planning and analysis today. This is going to be your go-to resource for everything FP&A, I am thrilled to welcome today’s guest on the show. Lance Rubin, a little bit about Lance. Lance is originally from South Africa. He currently resides in Melbourne Australia. He’s the founder of model citizen, a consulting firm for financial modeling. He’s the founder, our co-founder of EXL Cloud.
He is a certified trainer for the Financial Modeling Institute, which offers the advanced financial modeler and other certifications. He’s an all-around modeling expert. We are really excited to go ahead and get into the show and spend some time with Lance today. So, you know, Lance, I know you’ve seen hundreds of models over your career. You’ve probably seen everything from really well-done models to what I like to call Franken models, just total train wrecks. So maybe can you talk a little bit to our audience, you know, particularly FP&A people they’re trying to improve their modeling skills, maybe what are the biggest areas for improvement, what they should look for as they’re trying to become better modelers.
Lance Rubin
Thanks. Paul’s a great question. And it’s one that comes up often, um, I’d say, start to treat your model, like your house. Like it’s, it’s a place where you live, you have some respect, it’s a place where you’d invite guests into. Um, and so make sure you’re inviting people into the right place when they start, like you wouldn’t invite, bring someone in through the back door of your house, you’d bring them through the front door. So, you know, and you wouldn’t, you know, take them straight up to your bedroom and might be in a bit of a mess. So, you sort of, you know, make sure that you sit there nice in, in the lounge or dining area, or particularly if you’re going to be eating food, you know, you wouldn’t be eating in the garage, you know, so I have some structure to where you are taking them, and where, where, where you going to lead them.
Lance Rubin
So, I think that the key thing is often just, there’s no structure. There’s, there’s just, there’s sheets everywhere. There are numbers everywhere. It’s kind of like walking into a house and you just got laundry thrown over the lounge room table. Right. As opposed to actually hanging in the, you know, somewhere else. So, it’s, and of course the last thing you want to see is someone’s out someone else’s underwear, you know, whilst you’ve invited them into your house, it’s just, it’s a bit messy. It’s, it’s kind of distasteful almost. So, I think that the key thing there is structure, um, the other aspect of that is just, what’s the story? So, someone’s coming to visit your house. Are they coming for dinner? Are they coming? You know, what is the, what is the purpose? What are we actually here for? Are we just having coffee?
Are we just chatting? So often models don’t even have things that you don’t even know, like, why am I here? Like, it’s almost like a bad, bad dream or a nightmare. It’s like, what, what, what am I trying to do? Where are the dashboards? Where’s the story? Where’s the output? What’s the purpose? Now I think if, if you don’t have that nice and center in terms of whether it’s a cover page or an executive dashboard or outputs, or, you know, something that just, ah, I get it now I understand. Or, do I need to sit through a dissertation of you explaining what your model does because quite often people explain their models from a logic and formulas and structure perspective, as opposed to saying no, actually we, are trying to work out the valuation of this company to see if it’s viable or we trying to work out the cash flow to see if it’s sustainable.
Lance Rubin
You know, these sorts of things are critical when you start. And then the third and final piece, which is sort of a multilayered, but I’d say best practice, right? Just apply aspects of best practice. And the one thing that I see, which is just breaks, all of that is hard coding. It’s the number one sin that I see way, way too often, we use Excel analyzer to detect and find hard coding now one and zero and binary fine. But if, you know, if I’m taking, multiplying a number by 12 or multiplying something by a million, is it 12 products? Is it 12 periods? Is it 12 divisions? Is it 12 FTE? I don’t know. I’ve got to guess. You know, but if I actually write in a lookup table or a helper table in my sheet, in, in my workbook, and I say, this is 12 months, months in a year, there’s 12.
That’s what I’m using. And now I’m going to times, months in, year in the formula, you know, millions and dividing by millions and billions. You know how many times you’ve got to read how many zeros there are in the formula? It’s you, your eyes go wonky, and the chances are you’d even type it incorrectly. But if I name the range millions, now it’s called millions. Now that’s fine. And I can see it. And I can see all the decimals. I can see the commas. Because there’s only one number. When it’s in a formula I can’t see all the commas. I can’t see, you know, it broken up into, you know, the six zeros. So, it’s, it’s, it’s a problem.
Paul Barnhurst
No, I appreciate everything you said there. And you know, particularly you mentioned inviting somebody into your house. I hadn’t thought of that analogy. I really like it. What the one I’ve often used is, you know, we wouldn’t dream of building a house without having a blueprint and without hiring a certified contractor, somebody who’s, who knows what they’re doing and that we know can put the house together so that when it’s done, we’re not laying in the bedroom. And all of a sudden, the roof falls on us. Right. But yet we do that all the time with modeling. I mean, people don’t sit there and design it. You don’t build a blueprint. You don’t make sure you have somebody who’s qualified to build the level of model they’re building. I remember one of the best experiences I learned on that front is we had this complex model we were doing for work, and it was above my skill level.
Paul Barnhurst
And we had a guy that worked in investment banking and my CFO brought him in and we worked together for several months. I worked on the data side of the model, and he did a lot of the building out of the model. It was a very complex model. And a year later I understood the model well enough, and I was able to completely update it when I understood the business better, to better support the business. And it’s a model, they still use today. And for me, that was a really good lesson to one, know your limitations and two, you know, just the importance of having the right person in the room beyond just design, but sometimes, you know, models can get complex and having somebody that can help with some of those things you’ve never done is important. And so, you know, it was, it was a good lesson for me. And then of course I love the don’t hard code. I just hate I’m like you, like, what are you thinking? I can occasionally get, okay, days in a year, 365, some of those things, I might be able to forgive that a little bit. But some of the things you see, just, you just wonder what people are thinking, but that’s another story. So those are all great advice, you know, as you look at, you know, kind of your career and where it’s taken you, is there an accomplishment as you look back over your career that you’d say you’re most proud of? Like, if I, if you were at a job interview and I asked you, hey, you know, what is the thing you’re most proud of in your career? What would you tell me?
Lance Rubin
I’d say writing a major portion of the study guide for the CA (ANZ) in Australia is probably the number one. So, it was a massive piece of work chapter four of the study guide deals with financial modeling in terms of the build. And so, there were other chapters around, um, standards and best practice and bits and pieces, which others wrote. But I wrote the financial model building chapter, which covers everything that we spoke about covers scoping covers, design, um, you know, exactly like you said, just get proper design work, get proper outline of what, what you’re going to build and then actually building it, um, you know, applying logic to it. Making sure that you build great visuals and dashboards and scenario management. And is it a 1, 2, 3 or four way, you know, model, like why are you building it? You know, understand the purpose of the model?
Lance Rubin
So, I’d say putting literally 20 years of my knowledge into a study is probably one of the biggest achievements. And of course, I shared that on LinkedIn. The other part is I guess, going beyond Excel, the other biggest achievement is sitting on the power BI global summit this year. And I guess it’s for me another pivotal moment of where I’ve really gone beyond just Excel. Gone just, you know, so I spoke about how you bring the world of financial modeling and analytics together using a tool like power BI, where you can build three-way models, and bring and visualize that together inside power BI amongst other data. So now we’re starting to bring financial modeling disciplines around scenario analysis and sensitivities alongside your operational data. And that’s incredibly exciting. I’m not talking data sciences for the moment. I’m just talking descriptive diagnostic, like just the basic fundamentals of data analytics and reporting. But yeah, I mean, I, I I’ve traveled, you know, many different countries. I’ve probably trained over a thousand people. Um, you know, it’s, I guess those things are part and parcel of that, those other two in terms of my achievement, but I’d say those two are probably it.
Paul Barnhurst
No, that, that that’s a great achievement to work on that guide and to help build out the modeling section. So, you know, speaking of guides and resources, you know, courses, if people want to get better at financial modeling, they want to improve their modeling. Is there maybe a book or a course, or, I mean, would you recommend that guide? What, what are some of the things you’d recommend to people who are wanting, you know, a little more than they could just, you know, figure out on their own?
Lance Rubin
Yeah, it’s, it’s a great question. I think one of the things that I started a number of years ago was the Financial Modeling Knowledge Hub, which of course you’re an author of as well. Paul. One of the articles, it was, it was, I think there were about 39 different authors around the world. There were articles on the 40 years in the history of spreadsheets before Excel. So, there’s a lot of material in articles, um, that are sitting in the financial modeling knowledge hub. And there are, there are other links and, and, and content elsewhere. Um, so I think that that would certainly be one part I’ve written, as I said, a number of articles, and written coauthored with yourself. Um, you know, I’m a great fan of Oz du Soleil. He is an absolute hoot when it comes to, um, you know, making Excel look cool, sexy, funky, all that sort of stuff.
Um, and so definitely YouTube and Oz, but then there’s also a range of other Excel influencers, Mynda Treacy, Leila Gharani Bill Jelen, and there’s a whole, you know, Mike Girvin, there’s so many. YouTube I’d say is a, is a very big part, Chandu who I’ve met. And, um, you know, luckily introduced in a couple of meetups would, would be another resource that I, that I’d look at. Definitely from a financial modeling accreditation and learning perspective, the FMI, as we discussed before I think would be my, my own personal preference. And then I think just, just make sure that you become familiar with the technology nd just be aware of it. There’s no one place that you can go, but I think for me, LinkedIn is a great place. I learn, I, I learn a lot from you as well, Paul, some of the stuff that you’ve post on some of these other tools that I’m like, oh, I’ve never seen that one before.
I’m going to go have a little and have a look. So, I think, um, you know The Financial Modelling Podcast with Matthew Bernath, we obviously sponsoring season five is a big one. All things, financial modeling on that podcast. Um, and so that’s from all the aspects of data science all the way through. And so that’s definitely a podcast that I would listen to. Of course, yours would be another one. The Explicit Measures podcast is another one, which I’ve really enjoying, around power BI. So, the explicit measures podcast with, um, with the guys is, is, um, you know, super cool around all things, power BI and data analytics. So yeah, I mean, there’s a few there, but perhaps we can share some of those links in the show notes as well.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah, no, that’d be great. And when you said Explicit Measures, I’m like, that has to be a DAX power BI podcast. I think I have heard of that one before. I haven’t listened to it. I need to, but yeah, that, that immediate I’m like implicit versus explicit only a, a power BI nerd would understand that one. Half the audience is probably like what?
Lance Rubin
So yeah, yeah, exactly.
Paul Barnhurst
You know those are a lot of great resources and I, I mean, I think the biggest thing is just, you know, going out and being curious and willing to learn whether it’s a formal course, which I think is always valuable in Excel. I think there’s a lot of benefit from learning in a formal course that you’re just not going to pick up from just Google and just this and that there’s structure, there’s principles. There are things that just give you such a huge shortcut in getting to where you need to be. But there’s a lot, like you did mention a lot of great resources and I recognize all those, you know, one of my loves is Oz is just unique style. Yeah. You know, he’s such a great storyteller there, there’s a lot of great ones like that. So, you know, as you think of kind of FP&A, and, you know, kind of shifting gears here to a little more than financial modeling, I know you’ve done a lot of fractional CFO support. So, you know, when you think of FP and a, and you go beyond financial modeling, kind of, you know, business partnering, you know, management reporting, those other aspects of FP&A, what for you is, you know, kind of that area you focus on, what do you see as the biggest opportunity for FP&A professionals to provide value to the, to the business they’re supporting
Lance Rubin
It? It’s a great question. And I, and it probably comes back to the first point of the storytelling and communication. You know, and, and that’s not just, um, at the end when I’ve built my model, but it’s actually starts at the beginning. And you know, starting with why. Starting with the end in mind. Understanding and hypothesizing where you need to be and, and playing that story or understanding the story in the storyline now, who are the characters involved in it? What are the things you gotta watch out for? You know, obviously you have your good cop, bad cop. You’ve got all great stories in terms of, you know, movies and, and how that plays out. That’s no different to us solving one of these mysteries around our analysis. And if we’re not able to translate, complex analysis into a great story you know, even before we even, how do we get business leaders to embrace this thing that we are going to build, you know, before you’ve even built it, a model.
So, you know, let me tell you about this great model we’re going to build for you because we are going to be able to answer your questions. We’re going to build you a tool that you can use and answer questions yourself, and not have to come to us all the time. That’s what we want to achieve. We want to empower you to make better decisions. That’s what we want. You know, we want to give you the keys to the candy store. We want to give you the keys to the Bugatti or the Ferrari, or, or Porsche so that you can drive some great decisions. You know, I think that those sorts of analogies, as I talk about that you can see the candy store, right? You can see the keys, you can see this Bugatti, this Ferrari, you can feel it, right. So, I think that’s what we are missing.
We’re missing that emotion attached to the feeling of the numbers. And I think that’s where we have a huge opportunity to go beyond just the analysis and the planning, and the forecasting in FP&A. It’s more the embracing this world of storytelling and the skill of that. And that comes into communication. Also comes into empathy, also comes into, you know, two ears, one mouth. You know, let’s use it in that sound ratio. Let’s listen, and let’s talk when we need to. But really embracing feedback and really working towards that, that, that end goal and bringing on people for, for the journey. If the journey is all just numbers and spreadsheets, it’s not particularly exciting, you know, so what’s the story, you know, what are we going to talk about?
Paul Barnhurst
You know, there lot to unpack there, but I just love the focus on communication. The Story, you know, going beyond the analysis. So, we had on the show and think we’ll release the episode here in the next couple weeks, Carl Seidman from Chicago. And he mentioned, you know, the most important thing FP&A professionals can learn to do in their career is learn to communicate, right? Which storytelling is communicating. And I learned that lesson the hard way. It really hit home to me one time. I had spent all this time on a bunch of analysis. We had this big program. We were trying to come up with a new way to incentivize our sales team, to help us maintain revenue because of a change in a program. And I’d done a ton of work. I’d run it through my boss, which was our regional CFO.
And he’s like, oh yeah, this is, you know, good, really good analysis. And we get into a meeting with the global CFO and about five minutes in he’s like, this is a terrible idea. Why would you do that? <laugh> and I’m just like, kind of like, okay. And he’s just, he’s basically just bagging on us. And he calls him the managing director, managing director talks to him for five minutes. And then all of a sudden, he is back on course. So, 15 minutes later, he signs off on it. And I’m kind of like what just happened? Yes. And I was trying to figure out, you know, I had to debrief with my boss and my boss looked at me and he goes, your analysis was brilliant, but your presentation lacked. You lost the CFO. And that really hit me. He’s like, you did great job on the analysis, and you were right. But you weren’t explaining things. You weren’t communicating in the way that he understood it. And once the managing director helped him understand what we were trying to do, we got approval. And that really was like, okay, I failed my job. Doesn’t matter that the analysis was good. I failed on the last mile. And that’s what matters.
Lance Rubin
It’s, it’s critical. And it’s a shame that all of that hard work has that has that impact or that lack of impact when we don’t focus on our communication. And you know, even having a conversation with the CFO before going into the meeting, just to get an understanding of his headspace and, and what he likes to see. And, and, and how does he, how does he wanna work through problems? I think could be very powerful.
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Paul Barnhurst
So just, you know, last few questions here. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you, but know, first we’re going to say, you know, as you look at the world of FP&A what would you say is the biggest opportunity in FP&A today for FP&A professionals?
Lance Rubin
The biggest opportunity is data because we have it. We’ve always had it. Um, but we’ve always focused on financial data. Now we have the opportunity to apply that to non-financial data. Um, and there’s so much that I hear about technology, people wanting to get into the data world, but technology people are very much tech focused as opposed to business focused. And I think in FP&A and finance, we’ve got that business opportunity. We have access to all of this data across the organization . In the end, it all comes back, all data financial and non-financial comes back to one set of numbers and that sits in the financial statements. And that’s our bread and butter. So, I think what we’ve, what we’ve got is we’re sitting on a huge opportunity to go deeper behind the financial statements, into, you know, operational data, external data.
So, for me, the tools that we could now use to manage a lot of that data is incredible. And we are now for the first time, not hampered by just Excel. So that’s the opportunity. The question is, do we wanna embrace it? Are we prepared to learn? Are we prepared to change the communication? Are we prepared to even learn some technology skills around Power Query and DAX and mscript and, and visualization? And can we build a great visual, not just tell the story, but actually can, can we actually build not another pie chart, but at least something that’s at least a bit more, you know, better in terms of how the people want to understand it. So, for me, the opportunity sits in data. But I think there’s a huge opportunity for us to add even more value and be more valuable to the organization by leveraging the data that previously we either didn’t have access to. So, there was an access issue. Or we just didn’t have the data. it just didn’t exist. Now we we’re overloaded with data. We’ve got too much data. So, I think we’ve got from a data poor environment before, to now a data rich environment, but we don’t have the right tools. So, let’s get the right tools, let’s get the right skills. And now let’s march onto, you know, add more value by using the tools and the data to have great stories, great communication and great influencing.
Paul Barnhurst
I love that is, you know, using the data, like you said, it’s not about the data per se. But I really like how you ended that using the data to influence, to tell the story, to drive better decision making. We have so much more data today, and if we use it to drive the business forward, it’s a win for everybody. It’s a huge opportunity. But as you mentioned, that often requires upskilling learning new skills, getting outside your comfort zone and figuring out how to really dig into that data and to take it to the next level. So, I think I, I totally agree with you. There’s a great opportunity there to really shine and make a difference for the business. So next question here, this one’s a little more personal, what’s something that not many people know about you, something they wouldn’t find online.
Lance Rubin
Um, Paul I’ve thought about this. You know, people that have Googled me, I did compete for Australia and South Africa in Taekwondo, in martial arts and have spent a lot of time there, a bit of a, um, sort of a junkie when it comes to extreme sports, you know, scuba diving and, and all bits and pieces. But yeah, I’d say just the fact that I like to explore new and unknown places, you know, the traveling aspects. So yeah, love my sport. But I guess, yeah, it’s, it’s hard to sort of point a finger on, on what exactly is, you know, stuff that people won’t know about me, I’ve lived in three different cities, I guess you could see, you could see that, but I’m, yeah, I’m struggling a little bit, sorry with the question I sort of better, uh, something that people don’t know about me, cause I’m pretty open on, on social media and there’s probably a lot that I do share in terms of, uh, what I’ve done.
Paul Barnhurst
That’s a good one. I hadn’t heard the extreme parts. I knew you did the, you know, the martial arts and some of that. I’ve seen some of that on posts somewhere before where you’ve talked about that. So, we’ll go with that one. We’ll go with the extreme sports. That can always be a fun one. So, know, I was going to say, why is pivot tables, your favorite Excel function? Or feature?
Lance Rubin
Well, firstly, because I’ve never used it, um, for a long time, but I can see how it can be useful for people, but not for modeling. It just, it just doesn’t even appear. And so, you know, for me, Excel was my modeling tool, not my analytics tool. Now that I do have analytics, I’m like, I’m not touching pivot tables, I’m touching Power BI and Power Pivot. So, for me, like I I’ve gone beyond pivot tables. I’ve like sort of jumped like now that I would see value in a pivot table. I’m like, I’m not doing that in, pivot tables. I’m doing that in Power Pivot or Power BI. Because I can then actually start building logic around my, my data. So that’s why, you know, power in pivot tables is not my most favorite and the last little curve ball there. It is not my, um because I, you know, but I know lots of accountants and finance professionals in FFP&A people do like a good pivot table. Because it does allow you to slice and dice when you’re looking backwards. Absolutely. But as I said in the beginning, I’m much more about forward looking. I think that’s where there’s where this huge opportunity to add value as opposed to what happened.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah. And so, I’ll just give our audience a little bit of background. That was kind of an inside curve ball. I told, uh, Lance, I was going to throw at him because he kept asking, why is everybody saying pivot table is their favorite function. I never really used that from modeling. And you said he could really relate when I told this story, I had a CFO that came to me one day actually was general manager at this point, but he had been my CFO and he came to me one day and he’s like, how do you do this in the pivot table? And he was like, you know, the guy I looked up to in Excel and I’m like, wait, you don’t know pivot tables, but I was like totally blown away. And you know, he’d come from a similar background to you, the investment banking. And it’s like, I was modeling there. Wasn’t a need to use a pivot.
You know? And so, I totally understand that. So now I’ll ask you the serious question. What is your favorite Excel function, or it could be a feature?
Lance Rubin
Well, I I’ll give you rather than give you one, I’ll give you three because I think there’s, there’s some of these, some of these are, so if I’d say if I’d say the one, I’d say Index and the Index Match combo is the number one, the number of people that aren’t even familiar with Index is quite…Yes there’s X Lookup, but X lookup doesn’t work with all, uh, all versions of Excel and not backwards. But the other one, which if you ever want to enter some numbers into a grid, right? In terms of numbers, you just wanna sort of push numbers through a model. And instead of like entering one number copying to the right down, you just push control, enter, and it enters that number in the entire grid. So, if you haven’t used control enter, and that was actually someone, our next colleague of mine show me, which was very powerful.
And so absolutely control into, you know, Index Match and one which is again, a little bit different, but it comes up regularly for me when I have a list of items and I want to count them, you know, like number of products or people or whatever. I just wanna have a total list. I use COUNTA, cause COUNTA, as a formula allows me and I don’t, I don’t know why, but it just comes up a lot and you know what I said, look, I’m actually going to mention that on the podcast because it comes up more often than not. And it’s one that I don’t think many people use. So rather than giving people the standard, which would be my Index Match answer, I’d say, look at Ctrl + Enter as, as sort of a scalable way of entering data into a spreadsheet. Um, and then also definitely COUNTA comes up more often than not. I just want to try and make sure I have the number of periods. You know, I just wanna count the number of periods go, you know COUNTA.
Paul Barnhurst
Yeah. Now I’m a huge fan of, uh, COUNTA and I love COUNTA with unique now in 365. So, I don’t have to deal with the duplicates. Yes. Use that all the time versus the old way of having to write some kind of COUNTIF, to figure out how many times it was in there and dividing it by the number. I could never remember that formula. So, I was like, when they came out, COUNTA I’m like and unique. I’m like, thank you.
Lance Rubin
But again, that’s probably more 365, but yeah.
Paul Barnhurst
It is definitely a 365 thing. Well, I’m glad it’s not merge and center. Like our first guest. I was worried that you might go there. No.
Lance Rubin
Oh look, I do agree with Jordan because I have used merchant center. I do find that in, in some instances I still, I still use it. And so, an MVP, I’m not. I’ll just say that, but I’m, I don’t poopoo merge and center as much as others do. And as Oz said, this is not a religion we’re talking about in terms of we look up and index match, you know, this is just a formula. So, let’s, let’s have context. So, I think all of these things, context is important
Paul Barnhurst
Now. I completely agree. I mean, if you’re using it right, whether it’s merge and center, V lookup X lookup index match, it gets the job done and do it. Right? That’s what matters. Last question here. I know we’re out of time, but what advice would you offer to someone starting as an FP&A professional today? If you give them a piece of advice, what would it be?
Lance Rubin
I’d say go, go deep on Excel. Honestly, like I think one of the risks I see today is people., and I had an interaction with someone recently who learned Python and R and all these coding languages, and he didn’t know Index. He never used Index Match and yet he’d been coding. So, for me, it’s just like, well, this is, this is basic stuff. So, if I was starting today, and anyone that is, I’d still go deep on Excel. Absolutely. But know all the aspects of Excel, modern Excel as well with your Power Pivot and your Power Query. There’s no question that I think Excel is here to stay for a very long time and it can get you very far in your career. Um, and yeah, I mean, I think I’m proof of it and I’ve, I’ve used Excel as my tool of trade. And I think it’s, it’s incredibly powerful, but if you don’t invest the time and learning how to use it properly, and I’m not just, you know, using Excel as finger painting as Rob Trip used to say, which I love the point, you know, Excel’s not a finger painting studio for you. You use it properly, use it with proper design structure standards and best practice. I think that’s where I would invest time.
Paul Barnhurst
And I could picture Rob saying that in my head. I could see him saying that line. So yeah, that’s a, that’s a great one. I have to remember that one. Well, thank you. We’ve enjoyed having you on the show. It’s really been a pleasure to have you on here, Lance. And I know you know, you have a passion for Excel, passion for financial modeling and I’m confident our audience will, uh, you know, glean some great lessons that they can take into their profession on a daily basis. So, thanks for being on the show. I really appreciate it.
Lance Rubin
Thanks Paul. Thanks for having me and, um, good luck out there and great podcast. Keep it up.
Paul Barnhurst
Appreciate that.