First the good news.
FP&A hiring is not slowing down.
In fact, FP&A is considered even more crucial in challenging business circumstance, according to FP&A recruiters and hiring managers brought together in this special edition of FP&A Today.
Michael Jouris, finance recruiter Addison Group, says: “I have seen a lot of acquisitions by private equity backed companies in the recent months and they want to be more sophisticated with their reporting and in these times, FP&A is more important than ever.”
Sophie Bunce, Director of FP&A at fast-growing SaaS company Paddle who, has just hired more FP&A professionals in her finance team, adds: “In any economic environment, good FP&A is necessary. But In a rough economic environment, FP&A is even more important.”
Joining Paul Barnhurst for this special episode:
- Sophie Bunce Director of FP&A at Paddle
- Angela Kulzer, Director of Sales and Recruiting, RiverLink Staffing
- Michael Jouris, Addison Group Executive Search Consultant, Finance & Accounting.
This episode is essential listening for anyone looking to a future role in FP&A, or seeking to hire for an FP&A role in the future.
Highlights from this episode on lessons to secure your next role include:
- Perspectives on the current market for FP&A job seekers
- Remote working in 2023 within the CFO’s Office
- How to separate the “what” and the “how” in updating your finance experience and talking about your career
- How to powerfully show the outcomes previously achieved in your roles (based on what employers actually want to hear)
- LinkedIn vs Resumes
- How best to apply for a new role in FP&A while in an economic downturn
- The importance of your network
Watch the full show on YouTube
Read the full transcript and blog
Connect with our guests on LinkedIn:
Sophie Bunce Director of FP&A at Paddle.
Angela Kulzer, Director of Sales and Recruiting, RiverLink Staffing
Michael Jouris, Addison Group Executive Search Consultant, Finance & Accounting
Connect with Paul Barnhurst on LinkedIn
Connect with Datarails on LinkedIn
FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails.
Datarails is the financial planning and analysis platform that automates data consolidation, reporting and planning, while enabling finance teams to continue using their own Excel spreadsheets and financial models.
Get in touch at www.datarails.com
Paul Barnhurst:
Hello everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka the FP&A Guy, and you are listening to FP&A Today. FP&A Today is brought to you by Datarails, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis and discuss some of the biggest stories and challenges in the world of FP&A. Today, our episode will be focused on HR. We’ve brought some people from the recruiting world as well as from the finance world to talk about their experiences. FP&A Today is going to be your go-to resource for everything FP&A. I’m thrilled to welcome today’s panel of guests. We have three people with this. We have Sophie Bunce who comes to us from Amsterdam. She’s currently the Director of FP&A at Paddle.
She earned her bachelor’s degree in management and she’s also a chartered global management accountant. The second person we have with us is Angela Kulzer. And Angela, funny story, she actually hired me at a prior company I worked at. She comes to us from new Richmond, Wisconsin. She works for RiverLink Staffing and she earned her bachelor’s degree in biological and biomedical sciences from the University of Wisconsin. Might have to ask her later how she ended up in HR. And then finally we have Michael with us. Michael Jouris. He comes to us from Salt Lake, so he is in my hometown. He works for Addison Group in HR recruiting. They just opened an office here on focused on finance and accounting and he earned his bachelor’s degree from the University of Minnesota. So welcome to the show, each of you.
Angela Kulzer:
Thanks Paul.
Michael Jouris:
Thanks for having us.
Paul Barnhurst:
You’re welcome. Really excited to have all of you. Why don’t we start by just giving each of you an opportunity to tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background. And for this question, we’ll go ahead and start with Sophie.
Sophie Bunce:
Thanks Paul. So as you mentioned, I’m currently the director of financial planning and analysis, a company called Paddle. Paddle is a kind of complete payments tax and subscription solution for SaaS businesses and I’ve been here around 4 months now. Prior to joining Paddle was at a kind of similar size series D Scale Up based in Helsinki a company called Ivan. Doing cloud infrastructure, super hypergrowth company, very, very interesting stint there.
And then prior to that I was working for booking.com. I had a couple of roles there. They actually relocated me from the UK to Amsterdam to be based in their headquarters. Initially stepped into a financial planning business controller role looking after the people function. As you can imagine, quite a complex set of costs and workforce planning to do on a company with 16,000 employees at the time. And before I kind of transitioned more into an analytics role. So I took on global finance analytics manager there, managing data analysts and data scientists across APAC, Americas and Europe. Prior to that I started my career actually at Capital One. So obviously huge US Bank, but in the UK just a standalone credit card product. And there I started on the finance graduate scheme, so started in financial analysts financial analysis, started in cost and within a year transitioned into the other side of the P&L and got into revenue forecasting.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great, thank you for sharing that background. Sounds like quite the background, lot of revenue expense, analytics, various things in there. So thank you for that. Angela, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Give us a little bit of your background.
Angela Kulzer:
Yeah, so I’ve been in staffing for about 17 years now. I first started with a large staffing firm that was global actually in their sciences division and then switched into two technology for a few years getting into finance probably about eight, nine years ago. I have done both agency recruiting and internal corporate recruiting. So I have seen it from both sides, which I think is helpful but have done a lot in the FP&A space here in the US and have placed globally as well.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great, thank you for that introduction. Michael.
Michael Jouris:
Yeah, I’ve been in recruiting for about four years now. Third party recruiting Addison Group and all in the finance and accounting space. So worked out of our vendor office for the first three years and the company’s growing so I was chosen to expand Salt Lake City on the finance and accounting side and that’s where I’ve been since.
Paul Barnhurst:
Well great, that that’s exciting and we’re glad you’re here in Salt Lake. We definitely have a growing finance and accounting need here in the valley, so I appreciate that. So first question here, we’re going to go to Sophie. I noticed you’ve, I saw this on LinkedIn and looked at Paddle that you’ve only been there four months and you’ve already had I think a couple open positions, I believe two if my math is right, right around budget season as well. So maybe can you talk a little bit about what that process has been like in the current environment with all the economic uncertainty and trying to hire some people?
Sophie Bunce:
Yeah, absolutely. As you say Paul, we’ve had two roles open since I joined. So one is a senior financial analyst position and an additional complimentary financial analyst position. The reason for jumping straight in and hiring these roles is kind of having learnt my lesson in previous roles of leaving it a little bit too long. And I think the key is in any economic environment, good FP&A is necessary in a rough economic environment, FP&A and a is even more important and it’s a very easy justifiable kind of investment to hire these roles because you’re so close to revenue and cost that you’ll immediately see that payback on the fully loaded cost of an analyst, senior analyst. And so that’s my first thought now is who do I need to build this team out and get us to where we need to be in terms of what that environment’s been like?
There’s been a couple of things working in our favor at Paddle. One is we’re a digital first company so we offer the opportunity for any employee to work fully remote. So Paddle are actually headquartered in London and we have a really nice office there that a lot of employees take advantage of, but actually I was hired fully remote for instance in Amsterdam. This is where I call home now and it works well for me to work from home. So that really does appeal to a lot of individuals who have previously worked for companies, enjoyed that work from home environment through the pandemic and have been asked to return to the office. And so I think that led to a really nice selection of candidates on the inbound route. The second thing that worked in our favor is that we had a fantastic duo of kind of talent acquisition team between the sourcer and the talent acquisition partner.
And they just understood the Brief Paddle isn’t a huge company, we’re around 350 employees, so it’s not every day they’re hiring for FP&A or even finance, but they really understood the brief well and that allowed me to really focus on understanding the business and putting my efforts into fixing things whilst they did a lot of the candidate screening and moving the process along, which I was super grateful for. And we closed out the senior FP&A role fairly quickly and I’m really looking forward to welcoming on our senior analyst in mid middle of January. The financial analyst role was a little bit harder. I looked for different qualities and different skill sets and experiences for both roles and we’ve decided to take a pause on that one just for now while we reassess what we’re after.
Paul Barnhurst:
Now I have been there before where you got to take that pause and make sure what you really want and you get the right candidate. When you’re looking for a candidate. And I know this will change a little bit obviously depending on the role, but what’s probably the most important thing you look for in a candidate? What’s that top 1, 2, 3 things that you look for?
Sophie Bunce:
Yeah, I think like you said, it does differ between role. It also differs between stage of interview because I try and separate out the how and what of the role. What is can I model? What does my analysis skills look like? What are my technical skills, what’s my experience, et cetera, and how is what’s my attitude? Can I business partner? Can I talk to anyone at any level in the business? Am I driven, all of these sorts of skills? I kind of separate out those two buckets. And similar in terms of performance reviews as well. As I said, I think when it gets to hiring manager interview stage, I’m really looking for that attitude piece. For me I’m looking for a bit of diversity. What can the individual bring to the team and bring to the table? And that’s not just diversity in gender or race, but diversity of thought.
So I’m not always necessarily looking for industry experience, but that will sometimes differ on circumstances, urgency of the role, team and company needs. But in terms of that how and that attitude, I’m really looking for someone who is really looking to roll up their sleeves, get stuck in, is excited by the opportunity, looking to make process improvements, perhaps they talk about being bored of their current kind of environments in the past and what they’ve done to change and kind of mix things up. And that really stands out to me as a key quality that I look for in all candidates. It can be very difficult to get a sense of that on paper. So at the CV screening or early stages. And so I try not to be too biased or judgmental based on CV and experience but if a CV talks about results in this company, I managed to save three points of gross margin by talking and negotiating with X, Y and Z. That’s something along those lines will really stand out to me because they’ve gone above and beyond of just reporting and managing cost and really steering the direction of the company.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you for that answer. And I couldn’t agree more on the CV of showing how you drove results instead of just I managed things or I delivered a monthly report. When I see that as nothing but just doing the standards of the job, you immediately think, okay, does this person stand out? Do they have initiative or are they just doing the bare minimum? So I think that’s a really important point you make there and we’ll talk a little bit more about resume here later, but next question here is for you Michael, what are you seeing in the way of demand from employers for FP&A a roles? Have you seen any slowdown in the last few months with all the economic uncertainty?
Michael Jouris:
I really haven’t. I’ve seen a lot of acquisitions by private equity backed companies in the recent months and they want to be more sophisticated with their reporting and as Sophie said in these times, it’s more important than ever.
Angela Kulzer:
Thank you. Michael, how about you Angela? What are you seeing in your company?
Yeah, I would second that it hasn’t slowed down. I keep wondering if it’s going to occur and it’s not. The employers we work with are still hiring and still bringing on new resources.
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s good. I like to hear that. It feels like from my view over the last couple years, the pandemic has really helped transform FP&A and the importance in a business. People are starting to realize how much they do beyond just the back office reporting stuff, that they can really be a partner and they can be strategic if you allow them to be. And so I could see where a lot of companies need that in these times. As one of my guests said on a show, financial discipline never goes out of style and it’s even more so in style during these times. So next question here, and this is just to get your take. I think it’s a debate I’ve seen a lot out there with LinkedIn and the day and age. We live in so many different ways to reach employers. What’s your take on resume versus no resume applying for a jobs, just using LinkedIn and other forms? Maybe we’ll start here with you on this one Michael, if that’s all right?
Michael Jouris:
Yeah. I personally have not seen an issue with just presenting a LinkedIn profile. I think as long as you keep your LinkedIn updated not only with where you’ve been but what you’ve been doing in each role it can reflect everything that a resume can reflect. And as Sophie mentioned earlier, going above and beyond just the responsibilities, but what have you made, saved and achieved for your company? How have you gone above and beyond the duties outlined when you were hired in the first place?
Paul Barnhurst:
Thanks. I really like how you said made, saved and achieved. Those are great ways to think about it, so appreciate that. And what’s your take, Sophie?
Sophie Bunce:
Yeah, I think I might be slightly biased actually here because my previous role at Ivan, my CFO found me via LinkedIn and that was a really unique role actually being director for both FP&A and the central analytics team. So they were able to find my LinkedIn profile because I tick both of those boxes, which is becoming more common that you see that overlap. But yeah, I think when I’m hiring, I think the CV can be a good extension of the LinkedIn profile. It’s a good opportunity to add in extra detail, maybe explain a little bit about what the company does just one sentence. I’m not talking about a huge bio. We all have search engines available to us but it does kind of create that quick shortcut for the hiring manager to put two and two together and kind of say, right, okay that they’ve got financial technology background or X, Y or Z. I think though gone are the days where you have the 10 page CV or the sorry resume and the classic hobbies and references available upon request. I think those days are gone. It needs to be punchy, it needs to be snappy and I think LinkedIn does achieve most of that.
Paul Barnhurst:
I appreciate that and I would agree with a lot. You said I’ll add a little bit here, but first I want to get Angela’s thoughts on this subject.
Angela Kulzer:
I agree with both Michael and Sophie. I do think I use the LinkedIn as a snapshot for employers to look at right away. Sometimes I think as long as, like Michael said, if the candidate keeps their profile up to date and has good detail in it, unfortunately a lot of times people don’t have great detail there of which then you need that CV. But like Sophie said, on a CV you can put a few one-liners about what the company does to give an overview so somebody doesn’t have to click into the company or go look up the company because that isn’t usually on the LinkedIn account without clicking on the employer name. So I think both can be utilized. I do think as a candidate progresses, most of the employers I work with do want to see a CV with a little bit more detail than what LinkedIn usually captures.
Paul Barnhurst:
And that makes sense to me. I mean I would think as a general rule, obviously you still want to have a resume and have all that detail, but LinkedIn can be a great source for a lot of it. Now I’ll share for me, since I’ve been active on LinkedIn and built a following, so I believe in LinkedIn for a lot more than the resume say in the last year I believe I’ve had five job offers, not just people reaching out of interest but actual offers from LinkedIn from building a following. So I’m just a big believer in showing your work and showing your knowledge on LinkedIn. There’s a lot of opportunity that can come from that beyond just the resume.
[Datarails ad]
Michael Jouris:
Yeah, I think we kind of touched on it earlier, but gone are the days, as Sophie mentioned of hobbies and interests. I think keep it punctual highlight not just what you were hired to do but you know what you brought to the company that maybe other candidates or other people in that position couldn’t have, or didn’t make it unique to not only yourself but potentially the position that you are applying for.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Great point there Angela, why don’t we go to you next on that question.
Angela Kulzer:
So I think being as concise as possible, like Will said long gone are the days of 10 page resumes. Most employers don’t want to see a page or two pages at most at any level. Even if you’re applying for those higher level roles, you want to keep it relevant to the positions you’re applying for with actually taking that job description that you’re going for and making sure that all those components are in the resume because that’s what the employer is using when they’re screening out resumes. If you’ve applied to a role, they’re looking for those keywords and you want to make sure that they’re in your resume. So that way as they do those searches, that employer does that search being pulled out because of those keywords that are there.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great point. And I still remember this really stuck out to me, this was probably 10 years ago now, we got this resume from someone that was five pages long and I was asked to interview them because the hiring manager liked him and I interviewed him and I couldn’t place exactly what it was, but I could tell there was just something off and I couldn’t give him a good reason. He answered the questions, but it was clear sending that long of a resume, there was just not awareness of what was expected. And I remember telling the hiring manager, I can’t give you a good reason but don’t hire this person. And it ended up as just being a total disaster. So I’m always a little nervous when I see these five 10 page resumes. Cause I feel like sometimes there’s just not an understanding of what’s expected. What’s your take on that, Angela? I mean do you think when people send a really long resume it’s a big negative or?
Angela Kulzer:
I do. I think it would reflect how they do in their job. Are they able to be concise and pull data together and make it so it’s direct and to the point? That’s what you want when you have an FP&A, you want to have it all the data pulled together in a nice pretty package that’s concise, quick, easy to understand, and a five page resume. Just it’s a lot of fluff in there and I would worry how they would be as an employee.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thanks for sharing that. That’s kind of my take as well after that experience. Sophie, what’s your take on, what advice would you offer around resumes?
Sophie Bunce:
I can only echo what’s already been shared. I think also emphasizing that did the candidate understand the assignment piece is very, very important. As a hiring manager, you might be looking at 10 to 20, but remember that the recruiter that’s assisting you has looked through at least five fold for that, right? And you typically know what you’re looking for as a hiring manager or you have something in mind, those keywords that Angela mentioned maybe it’s tools or systems or deliverables that you’ve achieved. And I think as I mentioned earlier, it’s really making sure that it’s achievement focused. So just listing out your job description, copying and pasting that from the job ad of when you applied, probably not that helpful. Tell me about the impact that you had. You’ve got a limited amount of space. Tell me about the outcome and tell that story quite coherently, succinctly and to the point.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really love the part where you said kind of the action, tell me what you did, how you made a difference to the business. Don’t just copy the description of the job role and regurgitate it back on the resume because doesn’t really help anyone doesn’t, it definitely doesn’t help you stand out, that’s for sure. So appreciate that one. So next question here, and we’ll start with Sophie on this one. What have you found historically to be the most difficult part of finding a good FP&A candidate and filling that role?
Sophie Bunce:
Yeah, I think I alluded to this in one of the earlier questions, but I think prioritizing hiring when you are overwhelmed in a budget season or in the depths of day to day, I’ve learned the hard way that you need to prioritize the hiring. You need to make sure you are there ready to meet with your TA team or your recruiter to give feedback proactively. I said no to this CV, but these are the three reasons why it didn’t appeal to me. Helping guide those future CVs that land on your desk is critical and if you don’t put that time aside, whether it’s 10, 15 or 20 minutes on a Monday morning you won’t hire. So I think one of the first pieces is just realizing the importance of getting yourself out of that dark space of running against the treadmill, trying to complete the budget cycle when you are understaffed, it’s lesson one, put hiring first and I think secondly would be really clear on what you’re looking for.
And as I said, that can differ based on the role, the seniority of the role. It can differ based on the circumstances. So either the circumstances of your team structure or your company profitability, private equity, public, they will all be different kind of factors going into play of what you’re looking for. And if you are not clear on that, you will end up with 10 fantastic candidates, but it won’t get you any closer to having someone sat on that chair in the following period. So I think being really, really clear on what that is and guiding the recruiter through that. We spoke about LinkedIn earlier and what I found is useful is maybe sending links over of people that I’ve worked with in the past. This person is a great example of a senior analyst. I really liked that their LinkedIn shows they were promoted here and here and these are the reasons why I think someone like this or their profile would be a good fit. So being as specific as you can and helping shape that really does help speed it along. Yeah, so I think in answer, <laugh> in essence, to answer the question being what’s the most difficult is A finding the time and B, not honing in on what you’re looking for.
Paul Barnhurst:
Totally agree with the finding the time I’ve been there where it’s like how do I want to make time to interview this person and to go through these 20 resumes, I need to get this thing out, this deck, this report, this budget. But if you don’t do it, you only end up regretting it later on. You really do have to prioritize. And I really love your second point there, be clear about what you want. Because so often we’ve all seen it, you see these job descriptions that they want everything. Or my favorite is I want 15 years of power BI experience and Power BI has been around for 10 years and you’re just like, okay, obviously this person didn’t think much about what they need. There’s things in there. One time a guy was telling me, a senior finance person we had on the show, he mentioned he saw a resume where they asked for 16 different software programs. There was almost nothing around skills in the sense of, hey, can you do modeling? Can you communicate? It was just, can you use the following tools? Okay, how can you hire someone when all you want to know? Can they do tools? So I being clear helps with that. So what are you finding from your end is most difficult to help your companies fill their roles?
Angela Kulzer:
It’s definitely a candidate driven market which makes it, there’s things that need to align to get, get a candidate to move for a job. They’re interested about the company, about the benefits they really dig in more than they did when it’s not a candidate driven market. So the challenges or what makes it difficult as Sophie mentioned, is when things aren’t concise or when a company is not really clear on what they want in a candidate to fill a role. And that can come across during the interview process, which makes the candidate might question whether they want to go there, if all the interviewers aren’t aligned or let’s see here, it’s other things that make it difficult company reputation. It’s overcoming maybe where the company was in the past or where they are now. And as an agency partner to employers, it’s finding out where they are now and where they’re going.
What are the benefits of joining the organization? And not even just the organization but the team. What does the team and what does the manager offer? Another big thing happening now is, I mean it’s always been a part of it, but candidates are very interested in career progression. So yes, I might be joining as a FP&A analyst, but where can I go from here with this company? If people are going to make a move, they want all the stars to align right now. They want everything. So it’s trying to give them as much on their list as possible. But also, I mean as an agency provider, it’s helping them understand what’s realistic as well and being that go-between the employer and the candidate. But those are a few areas where I think it makes it difficult.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thanks, appreciate that. And as you were talking, one thing I thought about as you talked about just alignment and really wanting to trust and see the company and it’s so easy nowadays to go out and figure out what a company’s reputation is, right? Glassdoor, indeed, the internet in general, I mean I can go on LinkedIn and probably find someone that works at any of the companies I’m applying to within five, 10 minutes if not less. And you’ll reach out to them so you have ways to really find out what’s really going on. And so I think that creates some challenges. So you need to make sure you have a good culture and that you can address employees concerns because they’re going to have them during that interview process. So we’ll go back to Michael here and see if the ambulance has passed. Michael?
Angela Kulzer
To echo what both Sophie and Angela said, it is a candidate driven market right now. So I think some of the hiccups that I’ve seen as far as candidates maybe be stepping away from an opportunity is they see things on Glassdoor that could be from former disgruntled employees and they let that sway their opinion before even setting up the initial interview. And from a company perspective, I’ve seen it where the company’s interview process is just extremely lengthy. It might be four or five, six rounds and there’s a week between each interview and in a candidate’s mind, the company must not like me if they’re dragging their feet this long to make a decision. So I think not only does the candidate need to be concise and punctual with their resume, their LinkedIn profile, but a company as well. If you like someone, move them onto the second round, get ’em set up with someone later that day, later that week, and keep the process moving, keep the candidate engaged.
Paul Barnhurst:
Couldn’t agree more. In today’s world, a slow hiring process will often cost you a good candidate because when they have multiple opportunities and you’re dragging your feet, unless there’s a reason that they really want to work there, they’re just going to move on. And so making sure you don’t take too long to decide and drag them along is a real important thing in today’s environment. So next question here. This is kind of a fun one. I want to ask, do each of you have a favorite interview question you like to ask something that kind of gives you some insight and maybe why it’s a favorite? So this one will start with Angela.
Angela Kulzer:
I like people to talk about themselves. So I ask what are the three greatest things about yourself? And they’re like, oh, is it professional, personal? I said either or. And if they can’t come up with three great things about themselves, they need to be able to, that goes into the next part of their interview. They need to do I statements, what did they do in a job? And so I want them to, I kind of start here usually cause I want them to talk about what’s great about themselves and then I kind of key off of those pieces as I do the interview with them.
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s a really good way to get them to share a little bit about themselves, get to know ’em a little bit so you can know where to drill down and ask further questions. I like that. Michael, how about yourself?
Michael Jouris:
One question I really like to ask anyone that I interview is why they chose the school that they went to. You get a lot of very unique answers and some of them are unexpected. It might be close to home, financially affordable the others will really catch you off guard. It was a great program. They had a friend who went to the school there and heard nothing but great things. So I just like to see the answers I get from asking why they chose the school they went to.
Paul Barnhurst:
Funny story about this, and this was probably seven years ago now, I was interviewing with a company and the guy asked me, take me through your thinking of how you applied to grad school. And I really didn’t have a good answer for it and I didn’t get a second interview. So I could say really being able to think about and answering that question is a good one because I finished my answer and I’m like, I butchered that. So funny when you said that, Sophie, how about you?
Sophie Bunce:
For me, as Angela and Michael said before with it being quite a candidate driven market, I try more than ever to keep the conversation very casual. And I kind of preface that upfront at the start of the interview when we talk about the hour or the 45 minutes that we’ve got together what I do always ensure I do is keep kind of 10 to 15 minutes at the end for the candidate to ask questions if they haven’t had the opportunity or felt comfortable to jump in throughout the chat. And I think that often tells you a lot about the candidate. What sort of questions are they asking? Is it a very rehearsed list of questions that they’ve simply Googled? Is it genuine curiosity is are they using it as an opportunity to show what they’ve researched? They think there’s a time and a place for lots of questions from the candidate side and they absolutely should be taken advantage of that time.
Although to answer specifically, there is one question that I have started to use recently unintentionally and that is asking the candidate to walk me through the profit and loss statement of their current company. This started off just out of curiosity of understanding the businesses that the candidates are coming from and their perception, but I found that it’s a really, really good way to figure out can they distill complex information without the numbers in front of them and talk about it confidently. That can tell you a lot about their interaction with the finances and their role within that and yeah, how well they’ll be kind of going to communicate something that’s particularly complex to a new audience.
Paul Barnhurst:
I love that question. I haven’t asked that one before, but I’m going to use that in the future. That’s a really good one to ask. I’ve done some different ones but that’s a good one. So we’ll let any of you answer this if you have one here, but have you had a favorite answer, maybe something you’ve been really impressed with, something even just kind of funny that’s memorable that somebody has given to you in an interview when you’ve either asked your favorite question or just in general maybe just kind of a favorite moment. I see Angela kind of smiling there so I’m sure she has one
Angela Kulzer:
I’m drawing a blank actually, Paul, like after 17 years of interviewing people, I know I’ve heard a lot of great ones, but all of a sudden my mind went blank. So funny. I don’t have one right now.
Paul Barnhurst:
<laugh>. All right, we’ll give you a second. Michael, do you have any that you can think of?
Michael Jouris:
It might be recency bias, but I recently interviewed someone actually internally for our company and I asked why they chose Weaver State here in Utah and they kind of went on a two minute rant of why they really did not like the town they were from and wanted to get as far away as possible. And they had an uncle that lived in up in Ogden and so that’s why they chose Weaver State and it was just kind of bizarre and unique and it caught me a little bit off guard.
Paul Barnhurst:
Those bizarre unique answers can definitely sometimes catch us off guard when you’re like, that’s probably not what I was looking for with that one. Sophie, do you have any memories there?
Sophie Bunce:
I can’t think of anything specific, but there’s a question my previous CFO introduced me to which is asking what is something you’ve done to develop yourself and in the last 12 months or X months? And it doesn’t have to be professional, it could be personal. And I think for me that really gives an opportunity for the candidate to light up. And I can think of multiple times where there’s been something like a language or a dance or something that they’re very, very passionate about that has really shn through. I think that gives me always a little bit of hope and enjoyment of just seeing that spark and that relaxation come across as a candidate talks about something there they’re passionate about.
Paul Barnhurst:
I really like that I’ve done something similar where you’re tell me something you’re developing a talent doesn’t have to be work related, personal, professional. And you’re right, you see them get excited and it helps you understand are these people that are constantly developing. That they’re looking to grow and learn and also you often learn about a passion and so I think a question like that is a great one. I appreciate that one. We’ll go ahead on this question and we’ll ask Michael here. What advice would you give to employers who are looking to find a candidate in this environment? What would be the top one or two pieces of advice?
Michael Jouris:
I think we’ve touched on it a little bit, but it’s keep the interview process concise. When you find someone and if you really like them, whether it be skillset, personality, culture, have them meet the rest of the team they might be working with have them come in person to see the office, keep them just engaged throughout the process, be transparent with the process. If it’s going to be a week before they might have a second interview, just be candid with them and let them know, Hey, this went really well. I’m excited to get you set up with X, Y, Z and reach out to me in the meantime if you have any questions. I think just being transparent throughout the entire process is really important right now.
Paul Barnhurst:
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve always appreciated when I know, look, it’s going to take us a while and here’s why. Instead of sitting there wondering, are they ever going to get back to me? And I also love the point where you mentioned making teams available. I’ve had some interviews where they said, hey, we’d like you to interview with their whole team so you can ask them questions, you can get to know who you’re working with and who’s going to be working with you. And so you can tell when a company does that culture’s important when they at least provide you that opportunity versus hey, we’re not going to put you in front of any of the employees outside of the person interviewing you. That sometimes can be a red flag, not always, but sometimes it makes you wonder are they hiding something right. So I think that’s a good one. This next question will be for you Angela. Similar question, but what advice would you give to an employee in this job market? What would be your top one or two pieces of advice for an employee looking for an FP&A role today?
Angela Kulzer:
So I think partnering with people like Michael and myself who are dealing with companies all over the place that can talk to them about opportunities directly and give them the nitty gritty. If they see a job posting online, it’s, it’s vague. It’s not always direct and it doesn’t always answer the questions they might have if they want to pursue it. I mean candidates can be so selective right now. So partnering with an agency or reaching out to their network first to say, Hey, I’m interested in this company. What are your thoughts? Or I’d love to explore this job, can you tell me more about it? I mean, candidates can really find out a lot about a company or position before applying to it and they can be so selective right now.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I appreciate that. Good advice there. And I know Sophie, you talked a little bit about this one, so this question I’m just going to kind of go to Michael and Angela on. Are you seeing most companies still providing an option to work from home? How common is that or what have you seen in the last six months of things have started changing? And we’ll start with Angela on this one.
Angela Kulzer:
So I think it’s starting to shift. I have more and more clients that are shifting back to in-office. I think the majority that are doing that are open to hybrid. I think it’s pretty critical that I think it’s hard for a company to go from, hey, we let everybody be remote to hey, we need everybody in the office. Those companies are the ones that are hurting and will hurt and offering that hybrid option because some people want to get back to the office. Some people like that environment and want it, which is great. So I think offering both of you know can be in the office and you can be remote. That flexibility is kind of what’s key right now in this market. But I definitely see a shift more and more of my clients that we’re a hundred percent remote are starting to tell people at least to come back in from a hybrid perspective.
Paul Barnhurst:
That’s what I’ve seen from some companies as well. Michael, what are you seeing?
Michael Jouris:
Really the same thing. Majority of the companies that I’m partnering with are, if not fully in the office, on some type of hybrid schedule. Maybe it’s 50 50, maybe it’s just every Friday you work remotely. And I’ve seen it a lot where candidates over the last two and a half years have joined a company that went fully remote or was on a very hybrid schedule and they’ve now transitioned back to full fully in the office. And that can be a hard adjustment after two years of having that work-life type of balance. And so you see candidates who are starting to hop back up on the job market for that reason.
Paul Barnhurst:
I would agree with that. I mean having run my own business now and having that flexibility, if I went back to work it would to for another company, it would have to be hybrid at a minimum. I would not do an all weekend office job. Just the flexibility for my family is huge for me. So I can testify it makes a big difference. Sophie, I know you’re a hundred percent remote company, if I heard you right, how have you found challenges with that or how is that from your perspective being managing a team?
Sophie Bunce:
Yeah, exactly. But with digital first. So every employee has the right to choose where they want to work and where their most productive. Actually that’s managed remote employees to some extent even prior to Covid. But prior to the pandemic, when I was managing a global team at booking.com, I had employees whether they were sat in an office or not in Singapore, in Grand Rapids and Amsterdam. And you still have to find a way to work digitally, trust that work will be done when your employee in Singapore is logging off as you log on and then you are handing things over. And between those different time zones, all of the same principles apply. The trust, the empowerment, good communication, digital first tracking, whether it’s one-to-one notes being online or Trello board or something along those lines. All those principles applied personally to me as a manager prior to the pandemic.
I think what has shifted though as we moved to this work from home world is just a little bit more flexibility in understanding individual’s schedules and a bit more respect for the fact we all lead different lifestyles. Some of us are parents, some of us live with parents, some of us we’re all in different circumstances. And I think you can make that work again through those principles of good communication and whatever else is required. I think one thing that works really well at Paddle is kind of open calendars by default. So I’ll pop in there when I’ve got personal training, I’ll pop in there when I’m going to therapy. And by choice you don’t have to put a description on what you’re doing, but it just lets people know that you’re going to be out of office from three till five and you’ll get back to your messages in the morning or you’ll make up that time somewhere else. So I think that’s the only major difference from the flexibility of being fully remote and distributed is just that respect and understanding for different lifestyles, different schedules.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. And I totally agree, having that respect and being flexible is huge. It’s a great advantage that has come out of the pandemic and employees don’t want to lose it, right? Employers sometimes may struggle with it a little bit and I can, it can take some balance, but there’s some real advantages when you can balance a little better the life and the work versus being in the office all day and having to figure out how you make it work with that environment. So next question here. Earlier this year I had on some guests that were generation Z college students and one of the things they talked about is just how much they hate manual tasks, they want things to be automated data prep. They’ve grown up in a world where it’s kind of, everything’s instant. You don’t almost have to wait for anything if you’ve grown up over the last few years. So are you seeing candidates asking more about kind of the data, the systems, the automation that the employer has? And I’ll just start with you, Michael. Have you had employees being asking about that type of thing?
Michael Jouris:
I personally haven’t. A lot of the questions that I get are more about the culture and the future of the company and why is this position open? What is the future of this role? I think those are questions that probably get often asked in the actual interview with the hiring manager. But just for me, I have not seen that.
Paul Barnhurst:
Okay. How about you, Sophie being the hiring manager? Do you get asked about that?
Sophie Bunce:
I certainly have, and I think maybe I’m a little bit bitter about this, but I just missed the cutoff of generation Z by about a year and a half. So I like to think of myself as Gen Z to some extent, but that certainly has been important to me as a candidate in understanding where the company is going and are they willing to invest in automation and the future of finance and FP&A. Also from the candidates that I have interviewed, it’s understanding what impact will my role have. We spoke a little bit about differentiating between senior financial analysts and financial analysts, but there’s a thousand types of role depending on the company and the environment that you’re in. And one version of that is populating Excel spreadsheets and sitting behind a desk. Another version of that is using forecasting packages the latest tool, the latest financial planning tool, and then spending 80% of your time actually in the business talking to people, talking about the future direction of the business and the strategy. And I think a lot of candidates, and I won’t generalize by age, but I think a lot of candidates do want to be in that latter bucket and having more time making impact being out in the business and automation gives them that opportunity. So there is that appetite.
Paul Barnhurst:
Totally agree. I mean people want to be doing the strategy, the partnering for the most part versus, I mean there are some that may like data prep and the cleaning and all the backend stuff, but most of us don’t want to be spending most of their time doing that. So Angela, do you see many questions around that about automation or even around, hey, how much of the work is strategic versus kind of consolidation? What kind of questions do you get around that?
Angela Kulzer:
Definitely and I would say as an agency partner, I’m talking to candidates that, especially if they’re new in their career, I mean that’s where you have to start. You do more mundane tasks, repetitive tasks, things that might be boring versus strategy. And I think that’s where the ability to talk to the candidate about career progression. Like, hey, yes, there’s going to be a fair amount of repetitive or boring tasks in the beginning if you’re just an analyst coming in versus a senior analyst manager, et cetera. It’s helping them understand where they can go once they build on those skills and experiences and I help guide them through that as well. Then I help coach the employer to say, Hey, this person’s doesn’t want to really do boring or repetitive tasks, but they understand long term that they’re going to need to do these things. They just want to know where they can go within your company after doing those pieces that are boring until things get automated or can be automated.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. And I really liked how you pointed out the career progression. A lot of the strategy work and the more senior stuff, it comes with promotions and titles. You’re not going to go into a company from day one at least any company of size and be doing primarily strategic work and meeting with all the senior leaders. Sure, if you start at a startup and you’re first finance employee, that’s different. But if you’re going to a company like I did, I started at American Express, I obviously wasn’t in any kind of senior meetings as I started. So I think there’s an important balance of understanding that. Right. So I know we’re coming up toward the end of our time, just a few more questions here, but one I want to ask for you, Sophie, what do you see as maybe the greatest opportunity and risk in FP&A today?
Sophie Bunce:
I think in terms of the greatest opportunity that FP&A kind of have at their disposal today is their ability to play a role as part of the leadership team. We are a support function sure, but really we’re there to empower the decisions that the leadership team and the executive team make. And I think if we take advantage of that opportunity and embed ourselves in the leadership team, we can have infinite potential on the future sustainability, the kind of scalability growth of the organization that we work for. And I think it’s really important for FP&A to understand their role in that and proving that value and claiming their seat at the table. And it’s something that I really encourage all FP&A leaders to really think about is am I present and visible enough in these conversations? And in a timely manner, not just in the annual budgeting cycle, but on an ongoing basis.
Have I got a seat at the table? Am I being heard and am I being understood in terms of risk? I think looking at the macro environment now, we are looking at a global downturn more than ever. We need to make sure that our reporting and practices are 10 steps ahead. Again, calling attention to financial performance just in the budgeting and monthly reporting is not enough. We really need to be there to guide the business and enable the business to make tough decisions to make sensible decisions with data they can trust with reporting they can trust and to enable that business to course correct or take advantage. Not every business will suffer as a result of the downtown as we saw in Covid, some wins, some lose. So it’s what role do you play in the current macro environment? And yeah, try not to get bogged down by that risk.
Paul Barnhurst:
I appreciate that. The macro environment is definitely a big risk, but it’s an opportunity to help shape the business. And I love how you mentioned, right, you look at COVID, there are winners and losers and finance can play a big role in helping shape and understand how things are going to impact you. What’s the potential impact as we go into a global recession because every business is different. And so next question here, this is one we like to ask everybody. It gets a little more personal. It’s not something professional, but it’s what is something unique about you that you can share with our audience? And I’m actually going to modify this one a little bit for Angela. I’ll give her the opportunity to ask that one, but I want to ask, how did you end up in HR starting with the degree you earned?
Angela Kulzer:
Yep. So I have a biomedical degree. I did research for a biotech company for, gosh, a little over five years. So I wore a lab coat and goggles and worked in a basement and did research for kits that universities used. And they were small products that didn’t have sales and marketing backing on it. So I started going out and connecting with universities to see hey, would they buy the kit and got that sales piece. And so once my kids were selling, I went back to street lab work and I needed human interaction more than just in a basement with the lab coat goggles. So I had gone to a staffing firm to interview to help them place me somewhere and they had said, well hey, we have an opening here, would you want to come work for us? And I didn’t even know what a staffing firm really was before that point. And so they required everybody in their sciences division to have a science background in order to get into the staffing space, to place PhDs in researchers. And then from there morphed into technology and into finance. And here I am.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. That is a great story. I appreciate that one. Anything else unique you’d like to tell our audience since I kind of hijacked the question on you?
Angela Kulzer:
No, that was kind of my unique piece. Yeah, it’s interesting. People are like, how did you go from that you, cause I love science, I love research. So some days I think it would be fun to go back, but the human interaction and the challenge and the excitement of staffing, I’m really passionate about helping people find their next career move. I mean, it’s a big decision for people. It’s one of the biggest decisions they make is what are they going to do 40 hours a week away or more away from their family? And RiverLink Staffing is actually my own company, Paul, I don’t know if we ever talked about it before, but I started it 13 years ago. So my husband and I, so we’re small. We want to stay passionate about helping candidates and clients and delivering a great fits.
Paul Barnhurst:
I was pretty sure it was your own company. I do believe we had talked about that. That’s what I had thought. Yep. So Michael, what’s something kind of unique about you that you can tell our audience?
Michael Jouris:
I don’t know how unique it is, but I’ve been out of school for about five years now and I actually got placed in my first job prior to Addison Group by a recruiter. So that was my first experience with the staffing world and I just found it extremely beneficial with someone being able to tell me all about the company and the manager I was going to be meeting the culture I could expect when I got in there and that job, it was not very client facing, no people interaction. And similar to Angela, I really yearn for that. I enjoy working with people, not only talking with them on the phone but meeting them face to face, be it virtually or in person. And so that’s kind of how I got into actual staffing. And since then I’ve been able to work professionally and multiple different markets and it really gives you a sense of not only the national economy and hiring, but locally as well where the differences lie, what’s specific about Salt Lake versus Denver versus Madison, Wisconsin.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. Appreciate that. Sophie, how about you?
Sophie Bunce:
Whilst not unique, I think it does break the stereotype. So I’m going to share. This year I was actually diagnosed with ADHD, which breaks the stereotype for a number of reasons. One, women are significantly underdiagnosed. Two, the stereotype is sometimes assumed that you kind of attention to detail lacks, not very good with finance unable to deal with pressure, unable to focus, which is obviously required every day in my role in FP&A. So I think, yeah, that’s quite unique that I’ve kind of navigated this world and I’m actually learning to become more and more grateful for ADHD than I am finding it a hindrance. And as I learned to navigate that world and I realize that it gives me a lot as well. And I have a lot to be thankful. Thankful for this sense of ambition, this drive and impatience sometimes it really, really does drive through a lot of process improvements and there’s a lot to be thankful for it.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. I personally love that answer cause I have a daughter who’s ADHD, so I can relate to that one. And my wife tells me I am, I’ve never been diagnosed, she’s like, our daughter got it from you. So I really appreciate that answer. So thank you for sharing that. Next question here, and I’ll start with Sophie and then I’ll let Michael or Angela answer this question if they have one, but they may not use this tool much, but I’m pretty confident Sophie does. Favorite Excel formula function or feature can be any of the three.
Sophie Bunce:
So I haven’t used Excel since prior to 2018. Even
Sophie Bunce:
Opted for Google Sheets <laugh>, Google, exhausting.
Paul Barnhurst:
You can even give me Google sheets.
Sophie Bunce:
But in Google Sheets I find myself using the equals filter function. Very, very useful. If you want to use nice front end formatting that allows the end customer to select their department list’s, say from a dropdown list that will allow you to filter based on that selection. And the other one, which is probably what more well known that I use frequently is the equals unique function. Actually after just talking about our unique personalities,
Paul Barnhurst:
I’m a big fan of, so they have a filter in Unique now in Excel. They added those about a year and a half ago, I think two years ago. And I’m a big fan of both those functions, the unique and the filter. It’s amazing what you can do with them. So I can appreciate that answer. Michael, do you have one or do you use Excel much?
Michael Jouris
I use Excel for the bare minimum utilize spreadsheets. I could not create a pivot table or utilize the V lookup function if you asked me. unfortunately I don’t/
Paul Barnhurst:
Don’t. Fair enough. And I know Angela already told me, she’s like, don’t ask me an Excel question. So we’ll pass on that. So we’re pretty much at our time here. So last question, if people want to know more about you or your company, what’s the best way to get ahold of you and Michael? We’ll start with you.
Michael Jouris:
We’ve talked about it. LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn as most people are these days. I find it a very powerful tool, not just for finding jobs, but for networking and reaching out to people. So you can find me on LinkedIn. And as far as Addison Group goes, we’re new to Salt Lake, but we’re a national company with offices in about 30 different states. So finance and accounting, HR, it’s sort of a national brand but finance and accounting in Salt Lake is what I’ve been doing for the last eight months.
Paul Barnhurst:
So All right, great. So LinkedIn and then the finance and group online. Angela, how about you?
Angela Kulzer:
LinkedIn as well. I mean we have a website, but we’re kind of constructing a new one, so it’s the information’s there. But yeah, we’re nationwide agency partner and kind of have a little niche in the automotive space. A lot of our companies are in that automotive space, but have staff for various other industries as well. But LinkedIn is a great way to find us.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. Sophie.
Sophie Bunce:
First and foremost, LinkedIn. I try to be quite active on LinkedIn in quite a lot of communities, especially neurodiversity this year, high achiever networks. Always willing to make new connections. A short intro often helps. And if you want to find out a little bit more about what Paddle do, you can go to careers.paddle.com and see a little bit more about our Remoters culture and what we do.
Paul Barnhurst:
Thank you. And I just want to give a huge thank you to each of you for being on the show. I’ve really enjoyed you sharing a little bit about HR, hiring, what we’re seeing in the marketplace today, advice for employers, employees, and I hope everybody gets some benefit out of this episode. I know I did. So I just want to say a big thank you for each of you being on the show. Thanks.
Sophie Bunce:
Thank you.
Angela Kulzer:
Thanks Paul. Appreciate it.
Michael Jouris:
Thanks for having us, Paul.