Robin Kiziak is Financial Controller and Finance Business Partner at VF Corporation (home of outdoor brands Vans, North Face and Timberland). Previously he has been a finance business partner at Hotel Chocolat and UK home improvement leader, Wickes. He also runs the website, There’s Nothing Funny About Finance which aims to move finance away from stereotypes (think Dr No or Beancounters). In this episode Robin reveals how he has used humor to disarm tension in meetings and become a finance business partner trusted by his colleagues
In this episode:
- Robin’s Favorite Finance Joke
- How to be a finance business partner (“with a part of the business that don’t want you there”).
- The negative stereotypes of finance and how to overcome them
- The power of soft (or human) skills
- The distribution metrics behind Vans and Timberland’s finance successes
- Costs vs service as the “holy grail” in retail
- How to start off in a new finance role – which financials to look at first
- The biggest financial surprise you found
- Snagging an unsung hero award
- Biggest advice to an aspiring FP&A professional
Links – There’s Nothing Funny About Finance
Follow Robin Kiziak on LinkedIn
Follow Paul Barnhurst on LinkedIn
Hello everyone. Welcome to FP&A Today, I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka, the FP&A Guy. And you are listening to FP&A Today brought to you by Datarails, the Financial Planning and analysis platform for Excel users. Every week we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis, and discuss some of the biggest stories and challenges in the world of FP&A. We will provide you with actionable advice about financial planning and analysis. This is going to be your go-to resource for everything FP&A. I am thrilled to welcome today’s guest on the show, Robin Kiziak to the show.
Robin Kiziak:
Thanks very much, Paul. Good to be here.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, really excited to have you. So, just a little bit about Robin. He comes to us from the UK. He is a self-proclaimed hardcore financial controller. So he is not just a finance controller, but he’s hardcore. We’ll learn more about that as we get to know him. He currently works for VF Corporation and he runs the website: Nothing funny about finance. So any of you who know Robin know, he likes to tell a good joke. So we’re gonna start this interview by asking him to tell us what’s your, what’s currently your favorite finance joke?
Robin Kiziak:
Well, well, this is a, a good report ’cause usually I like, as, as people know, I like puns. So I’m a big fan of puns. So, so I guess one, one of them was around what do finance and accounting professionals suffer from that nobody else does? A depreciation.
But then also I’ve got, I’ve got a bit of a fable that I, I like to, to, to talk about now. And again, I I’ll read it out to you ’cause it, it, I think it hits a few of the, the, the marks. So a man piloted in a hot air balloon and he discovers his wandered off course and he is hopelessly lost. So he descends to a low altitude and locates a man on the ground. He loads the balloon further and shouts, excuse me, can you tell me where I am? The man on the ground says, yes, you’re in a hot air balloon about 30 feet above this field,. Right. You must be an accountant, says the balloonist. Yes, I’m replies the man. How did you know? Well, what you did tell me was technically correct, but of no use to anyone. So the man replies, you must be a manager. Yes, I am had, as you know, well, you dunno where you are or where you’re going, but you expect my immediate help. You’re in the same position you were before we met, but now it’s my fault. So I think that them has a few truths in it as well.
Paul Barnhurst:
I have heard that one before and I got a good laugh the first time I heard it. I heard it recently and it sums it up. Well. Yes, absolutely. We’ve, we’ve all been there. I mean, obviously there it’s the exaggeration, but it’s the fact that there’s truth in the exaggeration that I think we all chuckle about.
Robin Kiziak:
Absolutely.
Paul Barnhurst:
You know, it’s like, it’s like the Dilbert cartoons. <Laugh> Yes. You read a Dilbert cartoon and I think everybody can relate to it. Yeah. Even though it’s the extreme, like, oh yeah, I’ve felt that way a few times. <Laugh>.
Robin Kiziak:
Yes, absolutely. That’s it.
Paul Barnhurst:
So why don’t we go on here and just have you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, you know, where you’re at today and how you ended up where you’re at.
Robin Kiziak:
So yeah, I, I started off a long time ago in my career working in the, the National Health Service in the uk, the NHS. So that sort of gave me a good grounding in terms of I was working processing opticians claims at the time. So it was a lot of data input, a lot of transactional work. It gave me a good grounding to, to where I’m now, I guess. So since then, for the past 18 years or so, I’ve worked in the logistics or distribution side of, of consumer and retail businesses. So I’ve seen both sides of the coin from a three PL point of view working in DHL supply chain, where we had some high profile customers like Proctor and Gamble and Primark, who you might know in the US.
And then I’ve worked in-house as it were with, with Wix. So a, a home improvement company in the UK. I’ve worked with Hotel Chocolat which is a luxury chocolate brand. And now I work for VF Corporation. So, so anyone who doesn’t know VF Corporation, they’re the owner of various high, high profile footwear and apparel brands like the North Face Vans and Timberland are some of their biggest brands. And and I work in their first fully operational UK distribution center. And I’m the only finance representative on site so that, that contribute its own challenges, of course. And then, yeah, I started there sort of in the midst of, of the Covid pandemic. So yeah, so it’s had its own challenges, but yeah, I’ve really settled in now and, and enjoying the role. I’m doing
Paul Barnhurst:
Great. Yeah, I could imagine any job you start during Covid. I started one during Covid and definitely had its challenges. I would imagine, especially being on the distribution floor and all the challenges that come with Covid, that would be quite a time to come in. Right. Absolute some stories there. Yes. Before I get to that kind of question, you’ve held a number of different finance roles, you know, that are around FP&A and accounting. I think you’ve done supply chain finance, you’ve done controlling, you’ve been the business partner. And I know for our audience, you know, in the UK you often see finance business partnering separate necessarily from FP&A, you know, sometimes they separate those roles. And then you’ve also done, you know, traditional fp and a role. So within that group, kind of those different finance roles, do you have one that’s been a favorite for you, one that you like the most?
Robin Kiziak:
I think the, the finance business partner side of it I really enjoy. I guess in, in a lot of the roles I’ve done, I’ve been that, that finance person that’s not within the finance team or the head office team, I’ve been based at the distribution center. So sort of had to make myself be part of the operations team, if you like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So that’s sort of really drives that, that finance business partner mindset because know no one in, no one in the distribution center know really has a good word to say about finance to begin with <laugh>. So it’s, so it’s very much, you know, getting involved with people on site. I think it’s being curious, learning what, what the business does and how I can help and what information I can help and influence with. So yeah, so I think that finance business partner role is probably the one that I enjoy the most just because I could, I could be a bit nosy and get my, and get stuck into things.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I, I agree with you. I’ve mostly worked in the business unit versus corporate. Absolutely. In there I feel like you have to do a lot more business partnering. And so I really enjoy that. But I know you’ve been in a few factories out on the floor. How do you develop a business partnership with, as you said, people who don’t want you to be there? <Laugh>
Robin Kiziak:
It’s, it, it can be difficult, I think to begin with. It’s very much around building those relationships. You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be able to build relationships fast. If once you get into a new role, it’s getting those small wins and getting the trust of the people that you are working with. You know, I think Wix was probably a good example for me of, of, I went in I was dis distrusted because, you know, there’s a finance person, what, what they doing here? What do they wanna know about? It’s very much then building that trust with people. And, you know, by the time I I’d left the business, I’d very much got ’em on side and they, they were coming to me saying, oh, I, no, we can reduce our cost to serve, you know, can we do this, this, and this? So it was sort of a flip a reversal of, of roles in, in a way. But yeah, I think that building relationships and that, that sort of, the personal contact you have with people can make it the world of difference. It’s just so important.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I love the part you said about getting those small wins to help build the relationship because so often, you know, they look at finance, we’ve all heard the term CF-no, instead of CFO. Right? It’s like they wanna do something. Nope. No money can’t do that. Nope, nope, nope. And it’s like, okay, I remember one person on the podcast, he had a senior leader comment to him one time, do you finance people have anything positive to say ? And, you know, that was an eye opener for him. Like, wait a second. That’s definitely not how it should be. And so I, I love the the small wins you mentioned, you know, any other, just kinda as we’re talking about subject when it comes to partnering, any other advice you would offer there that’s really worked well for you? You know, to get to know them better?
Robin Kiziak:
I think, I think it’s that being curious and showing an interest. Sometimes, you know, you can very much in finance especially we, we, we can, you know, we sometimes we live up to the stereotype of being introverted and, you know, being behind the computer, staying in our little ivory tower out the way. But I think, you know, getting out into the business and seeing what people are doing in their, in their home environment can make, can make a difference because, you know, sometimes it’s just getting out and, and being known and being a face rather than someone who sends an email, sends a report. It’s never gonna be read. And I think that’s, you know, that, that sort of gets people’s back up, especially when it’s bad news. So, you know, if we could get out there and build those relationships before you get to that point, know those difficult conversations that you might have to have down the line, then not so difficult. So I think that’s it. I think it’s just getting your face out there sometimes, you know, we’re very good at sitting in our offices or closing the door and just hoping that, you know, we can sit and do our reports and send things out. So sometimes it’s just, yeah, getting out there and getting into the business more than anything.
Paul Barnhurst:
Great point. As I like to say, sometimes it’s just a matter of putting Excel down, stepping away from your computer and talking to people. Yeah. ’cause you do, you know, there’s obviously that stereotype and it’s easy to spend all day in a spreadsheet and looking at numbers if we’re not, not careful . So I love the point you said you’ll be out there on the floor with them, get to know them, get to know about their job, be curious, learn the business. Yeah. And then you can offer advice that goes beyond, Hey, our cogs margin is up 20%, I think this might be, what’s going on? What do you think about that? And then you can actually have those conversations and build those relationships. So like you said, when you have to share bad news or you do have to, you know, talk to ’em about a hard decision, you have that relationship. So it’s not just like, there goes finance again type of thing. Yeah,
Robin Kiziak:
That’s it, exactly. That
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Thank you. So, you know, I know you’re on the website called Nothing Funny about Finance, and if anyone hasn’t checked it out, they can do that. Also, he shares a lot of jokes on LinkedIn. But one thing you mentioned on your website, you talked about the negative stereotypes of finance and accounting and how your goal is for them to stop here first. What are those negative stereotypes and how are you working to stop ’em?
Robin Kiziak:
I think we mentioned a few of them already. You know, it is that the classic bean counter, you know, we, we block everything. We we’re fun suckers. You know, we’re, we’re all about about stopping things happening. We’re all about cost cutting, all of these sort of classic stereotypes that we hear about now. And so, so when you say to someone, you know, what do you do? I work in finance, I work in accounting. These are instantly the things we we’ll come back with. And I think no, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just not right. You know, there’s some there as well that, you know, when they we’re talking about we’re boring, I suppose I’ve, I’ve not helped it by saying we’re a bit introverted as well, but there’s all of these things that, you know, they’re just, they’re strictly not true. And actually I’d, I was looking around for examples of this, so, so Mick Jagger, so he, he studied an accounting at the, the school, London School of Economics.
And then, you know, he gave, I guess he came, became famous for a different type of numbers. <Laugh> <laugh>, you know, he’s far from introverted, if you see him performing on stage. So, so these, yeah, these stereotypes are just given out to people without any sort of backup to it. It’s just, it’s just one of those things that gets passed from one generation to the next, I guess. And in terms of ending them, I think it’s, it’s, it’s just showing that we’ve got a personality. You know, we are not, we are not the, we’re not the bean counters. We are not there just to stop everything happening. We we’re doing our jobs because that’s our jobs, but also, you know, we have got a personality and, you know, get to know us. And we’re a lot different to that, that stereotype that you instantly come to.
Paul Barnhurst:
I think you’ve given me a name for this episode, <laugh> Accountants. We actually have personalities. <Laugh>, yeah, there we go. No, <laugh>.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah. Yeah. That, that would be a very true title. <Laugh>
Paul Barnhurst:
And, and the stereotypes or something. Yeah, <laugh>. Yeah. I, I agree with you. We’ve all heard ’em, you know, obviously I don’t have an accounting degree. I’ve never had a traditional accounting role. I’ve done FP&A for a decade. But if I mention I work in finance, everybody immediately thinks I’m an accountant.
Robin Kiziak:
Oh,
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And that, you know, and so then the stereotypes start. Oh, so you’re being counter, it’s, yeah. No, not really. Yeah. Here’s what I do. And helping ’em understand that. And so, you know, the, the jokes are fun and you, you have humor about it, but you also wanna help people realize, look, we’re more than the stereotypes. Yeah. We really can drive value for the business, and we’re here to work with you. We’re about more than numbers. And so I love all you’ve shared of just getting out and talking to people, because I think that’s the big, one of the biggest things we can do in FP&A is spending time with the business to really help them show that we’re partners. We’re not, you know, bean counters or whatever, introverts that just wanna be at a spreadsheet, whatever stereotype you wanna use, right?
Robin Kiziak:
Absolute. Yeah. Yeah. And then you touch on a good thing there, you know, it’s, it’s all about communication. You know, we, and it’s not just an email. It’s, it’s good, like you say, and talking to people and, and that, that, that makes all the difference, I think, you know, and it breaks down those barriers.
Paul Barnhurst:
I heard someone once say, you shouldn’t on face, assume an email is communication. Yeah. Just because you send an email doesn’t mean you communicated one, you don’t even know if they read it. Yeah.
Two. There’s a big, you know, what they say, 70% of communication is, you know, non-verbal body language. They’re seeing no body language. Now, obviously, there’s times when you can only manage things during an email or a phone call. They may not see body language today. You can almost always get on a video call. Yeah. So there’s ways to make sure that the communication is heard, but it’s easy sometimes to be like, well, did you cover that? Well, yeah, I sent an email. Did you hear anything back? No. Did you follow up? No, but, but I sent an email, so I communicated.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
Maybe not. And so I encourage people to really think about that. When you talk about communication, the medium is important. Is email the right way? Should you also pick up the phone? You know, maybe a text message, maybe a, a meeting, not that we want more meetings, but, you know, think about it. What’s really gonna be of most value in that situation.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I think especially more so now in this sort of age of AI and now these technologies that you, we need to differentiate ourselves to stand out even more. So, you know, we’ve, we are people, we’re all human. You know, let’s use those human traits to, to be better at our jobs and to, and to get on better with the business as well.
Paul Barnhurst:
Agree. I, you know, when you speak of AI I was at a conference last week in California, and obviously by the time this were released, it would’ve been a couple months ago. You know, it takes a little while to get these out. But they talked quite a bit about AI and artificial intelligence, and showed a lot of the things that are coming. And a lot of the technical things we do are gonna become much easier. We still need to validate, but I think soft skills and the communication and the strategic thinking and those things that go beyond, how good are you at Excel or how good are you? Or BI Not that they’re not important, but I think these other skills are gonna become even more important to help differentiate ourselves. Yes. And help make sure we can stand out in the profession. And I know on your website, you know, I loved the way you referred to soft skills. You called them human skills instead of soft skills. And I, I really like that. I’ve never been a big fan of the term soft skills. To me. It doesn’t, I I’ve never thought it does justice. So can you maybe talk about why you picked human skills, why you like to use that term?
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, I think, yeah, that, that term soft skills, it seems to be sort of a generic term. But it sort of makes it sound like they’re optional or easy to acquire or, or nice to have. And, and in reality, they’re skills that you develop over time. You know, you learn different, different soft skill or different skills through various parts of your career. And the lessons to get there, you know, sometimes they’re as tough as the accounting exams that people have to sit. And I guess, you know, hard skills are given that name because they, they result in sort of measurable or, or trackable abilities. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or certifications, you know, I don’t think anyone’s ever received an award for, for say, mastering, I dunno, empathy or something like that. <Laugh>. So I think that’s, you know, that that’s, that’s sort of the distinction. And that, yeah, I think human skills, you know, they, they are skills that make us human. You know, when we think about the things that we’re talking about here, you know, it’s things like communication, listening influencing, building relationships, trust, credibility, you know, all of things. Even even humor. So these, yeah, these are all the things that make us human. So, so I think, yeah, it’s definitely, I thought it’s a more encompassing term than the soft skills that sometimes sort of diminishes what, where we, where we’re coming from with it.
Paul Barnhurst:
I like how you said, sometimes it diminishes when I hear soft skills, you know, you think of something soft like, I go to sports. Yeah. I think often they refer to you the basketball guy that doesn’t want physical contact. Oh, they’re soft. Or someone who struggles to perform in the moment. You know, they’re mentally soft. You often hear that term in a negative light, not the soft in itself. So there’s anything negative about it. When I want a bed, I want it to be soft. I don’t want it to be a hard skill, so to speak. Right. <laugh>. But in general, when you put it with the word skill, I think it has almost a little bit of, a lot of people kind of put a negative connotation to it. Like it’s less important. So I really like that human skill because as I like to say, you know, and this is something I learned in grad school, your technical skills will get you your first job outta grad school. Your human skills is what gets you promoted. Yeah. You’re not gonna be a leader without being able to work with people, or you shouldn’t be a leader. You might be a manager, but you’re not a leader. Yeah. Without those soft skills. And I think we’ve all probably worked with that manager where you’re just like, <laugh>. Hmm. I’m not sure this was a good idea. I’ve had a few <laugh>.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, yeah. No, I know exactly what you mean. I think it is that thing. It’s, yeah, your sort of, your technical skills are the foundation, but that human skills and everything else is what sort of elevates you, as you just said.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And speaking of elevation, how has focusing on those human skills helped you move up and advance in your career? How have you seen that impact your career?
Robin Kiziak:
I guess if we focus on, I’m a big advocate of humor as, as, as you know. And I think, you know, for me that’s sort of it. It has helped a lot. So, you know, I think in terms of me personally, you know, it sort of reduces the stress, prevents that sort of burnout. And, and you know, even when we’re having those difficult conversations, you know, using a bit of humor in the right way at the right time can diffuse conflict and things like that. And it, and it sort of builds that rapport as well with others. So say, you know, definitely sort of using, focusing on one aspect of humor, you know, has a lot of benefits for, for the individual. But then I was thinking about, you know, from the organizational point of view, it, it sort of improves morale as well.
You know, it decreases staff turnover because people are engaged and want to be there. And, and it builds, I guess that team cohesion if you like. And then overall of course, what all of this equates to is increased profits, which is good for everybody. And I suppose at the end of the day there, there’s a reason that funny rhymes with money and and this is, this is what, where are we coming to? So yeah, I think, and in terms of all the other skills that we use, you know, also have that, that positive attributes that that really help, you know, and I think it comes back again to that human and be building relationships, having the personal relationships and that makes everyone work together and improves it for everyone.
Paul Barnhurst:
I like that. I’m gonna ask a follow-up question. You started with kind of talking about humor and how it can diffuse a situation. Do you have maybe a story you can share, you know, kinda your career where being able to use humor has helped you navigate a difficult situation or helped kind of diffuse the room during a difficult time? Because I think for a lot of people it’s hard to know when’s the right time to use humor and when not. ’cause Sometimes, and I’ve been guilty of it, I still remember a senior boss I had one time, I was joking about something, he is like, Paul, now’s not the time. And I was like, alright. You know, and I had to, I had to reign myself in. So I’m just curious if maybe you have a situation you could share where you felt like, you know, it worked well to help you in a situation at work.
Robin Kiziak:
I think, like you say, I think it’s a lot about knowing your audience. So if you, if you’re someone you’ve never met before, you just be very careful with it. But it’s, if you’re someone, you know, you, you know, sort of how they react to things. And then the other side of it, you know, is, is just what is the right type of humor to use. So, you know, you don’t want to go under sort of that aggressive type of humor. It’s more self depreciating, that sort of thing that can can really help. So I think for me, I’ve probably, I’ve been in a couple of situations where, you know, sometimes it gets a bit heated in an argument or, you know, people have a difference of opinion, shall we say. So <laugh> and, and sometimes, you know, I’ll just drop and this room goes side and, and you dunno what to do. And then it’s just, you know, verbalizing some of those internal thoughts, perhaps the good ones rather than bad ones. And then yeah. Saying, oh, well this is awkward. Yeah. And straightaway, because you said that someone said something, it just breaks that ice and it, it breaks, breaks the room, the tension in the room. So I think, yeah, something like that just to, yeah. Sometimes it’s just a little comment just to, just to get through a really awkward situation. <Laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. You Yes. A little, the well-placed, it can diffuse what’s going on in the room.
Robin Kiziak:
Absolutely. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s a good way I kind of think about is it really can, it can change the room, both good and bad. Like I remember, you know, one of my partner I trained with do a lot of training with I, Ron Montero tells the story where one time someone came into the room and it was, there was a bad mood and they really wanted to focus on fixing things. And he was trying to be humorous the whole time and it just didn’t work because it was like, no, we need to be serious and focus on what’s wrong. Yeah. And so knowing that right time and when to place it is a big part of it. ’cause It can definitely help when done. Right. A hundred percent. I mean, we all wanna laugh in life. At least I do <laugh>, so
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah. No, that’s it. Yeah. That gets us through the day often. So, yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
[Datarails Ad]
Next subject I wanna cover a little bit is more talking some, some FP&A around metrics. So let’s start with VF Factory. What are some of the key metrics that you guys track that you look at it, you know, to help you know, is the business on track or do we have a problem?
Robin Kiziak:
So I guess the biggest ones we look at are sort of around performance measurement. So, you know, how, how productive are we? Can we become more efficient. Where are the, the bottlenecks in the distribution center (DC) so, so what’s, what’s slowing us down? And then it’s providing that insight based on the data, but also, you know, through the eyes of being in and around the DC so, so where are the opportunities to improve? So I think that’s probably one of the big things that we’re looking at at the moment. Of course, you know, we always come back to that, the fundamental financial performance for our cost per unit and cost to serve metrics. But in terms of, of where we are as as as DC currently now we’re a two year old DC so it’s very much around sort of going to the next level in terms of performance and understanding how, how we make that step change to get the even better than we are currently.
Paul Barnhurst:
Got it. So two year old distribution center there. And you mentioned, you know, a lot of those performance metrics. What’s the capacity? Where’s the bottleneck? Also looking at some of the finance, is there one, is there one metric that you like best? Maybe one operational and one financial that are kind of your go-to? I know you’re gonna look at different things at different times, but if you had to pick one, is there one that you feel best, you know, really kind of helps you quickly see if something’s off course?
Robin Kiziak:
I, I suppose from a, from a operational point of view, it’s like our, our picked units per hour because that sort of gives us a proper indication. That’s where most of our our resources is, is focused on. So if we can see if that’s going well, then, then yeah, that’s a tick in the box. And then I suppose from a finance point of view, and that, that cost per unit is, is so important and it gives us a sort of a, a rounded overview of the whole distribution center. ’cause You know, it looks at costs, but it also gives us an indication of volume. So, you know, if our, if our volume goes up, you know, that that always helps the cost per unit. So, so yeah. So I think it’s, yeah, that, that sort of gives a, a good overview and it, and we also helps us find that balance between sort of cost and service, which is, you know, as you, as, as I’m sure you’re aware, is always the holy grail, isn’t it? So where, where’s the, where’s that tipping point?
Paul Barnhurst:
Yep. Every business wants a 10 on service and a one on the cost. That’s it. Yeah. Right. And <laugh> obviously not realistic. It’s finding that right balance that says, okay, we’re getting great customer scores, our customers are happy and we’re earning a reasonable margin. Yeah. You know, a healthy margin. And that, that’s kind of, that holy grail as you said, is finding that and different for each business. Some businesses, you know, are very much 100% we provide world class service, others are Right. We need a certain level and we wanna keep the cost below a certain point and we’ll adjust accordingly. Yeah. You know, but I think, I think you’re totally right. That really no matter what kind of business you’re run, there’s a holy grail there of trying to find that right balance of how, where the two sit. ’cause They always seem a little out of balance.
Robin Kiziak:
Oh, always. Yes. Yeah. And then, yeah, it’s, it’s your job to point out where the problems are and then it’s always so your job to try and correct it. Yeah. <laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. And I, and I love the second point you said there, I think early in a finance career, we often think it’s our job to point out the problems and the business fixes it.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
As you get further into your career, and as I’ve learned, don’t just point out the problems come with recommendations. Yeah. They may shoot ’em down, but they may give ’em other ideas and they see you’re trying versus just pointing out, well, hey, your cost per unit was up 7 cents and that’s not acceptable. What did you do wrong this month? Right. That, that doesn’t win any friends. No,
Robin Kiziak:
That that’s it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. I think you are right. It’s that coming, coming with some solutions is yeah. Is better than coming with nothing because like you say, then it just then sort of goes back to that stereotype of, oh, finance are picking on us again. You know, and it doesn’t help anyone <laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I so I teach, you know, I have a section I teach in some courses on business partnering around trust. And I came across an article from Forbes and it said what people hate about every business department and for finance, it listed two things that made me, you know, kind of chuckle, but there are some truth to ’em. One finance considers any expenditures on non-essential items as a personal affront on the financial wellbeing of the company. You know, and I gave an example of like getting cream cheese with bagels, you know, something that’s just like irrelevant and finance freaking out. And so that one kind of made me laugh, but there’s some truth to it. And the second one was really interesting is it basically said, you know, if you give give finance ideas to improve their process, they feel like you’re personally attacking them.
And I thought that one was interesting, like, you know, ’cause I’ve seen studies that say finance is behind other departments on using technology, on utilizing ai, utilizing machine learning, all the new tech that’s out there. And so I think those kind of, you know, that second one we did so much talk about, but the first one really the expenditures, you know, it hits it on the head that sometimes we can really get too focused on that versus let’s not worry about cost, let’s worry about efficiency and are the dollars being spent well ’cause we gotta spend, you don’t make money outta nothing.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, yeah, it’s that looking at the symptom rather than the root cause, you know, that that’s, that’s the ideal that, yeah, you wanna be the doctor in the warehouse or the doctor in finance, but find that root cause.
Paul Barnhurst:
Agree. So if you’re coming into a new job, I know you’ve had a number of different jobs, you know, where do you start in kind of looking at the financials? Like, you know, do you have a favorite financial metric certain statement you start with like balance sheet, income statement. How do you go about kind of analyzing a business when you’re coming into a new role and analyzing those financials?
Robin Kiziak:
Oh, that’s a good question. I think for me it’s, it’s more, ’cause I’ve done roles where I’ve been just focused on the P&L or there’s been roles where I’ve, I’ve been focused on P&L balance sheet. I think for me, the P&L and looking at perhaps to start with, well what’s in accruals, what prepayments have we got? Looking at those sort of fundamentals, you know, where are we there just to make sure, ’cause you know, sometimes people have a lot of money up their sleeve, perhaps that they keep in for a rainy day. So you wanna be aware of that when you first come in. But then of course it’s also then looking at, you know, where are we spending the most money? What’s, what’s driving that? So I think they’re probably the main areas I would look at first.
Paul Barnhurst:
And I can tell you have an accountant background, ’cause you went to the balance sheet. Accruals and prepaids first. I am gonna guess you’ve had a few reconciliations where there’s been stuff on a balance sheet that you’re like, this probably doesn’t belong here.
Robin Kiziak:
Oh yes.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely <laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, no, I can go and I would really recommend anyone FP&A those are great ways, great areas to look because you don’t want that surprise where all of a sudden that million dollar bad guy comes because somebody didn’t clean up a balance sheet correctly. Something hadn’t been reconciled. Yeah. I, I had that happen in a role where, you know, we had several hundred thousand we had to recognize one month ’cause they stuck all the prepaids on a different balance sheet and nobody was reconciling it. So we had all our costs there and we had to go back to ’em. They just told us to find a bunch of savings. We’re like, oh, hey, surprise, here’s half a million dollars of expense.
Robin Kiziak:
That’s it. Yeah. Talk, talk about those difficult conversations. Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. That it was not a fun one and you’re trying to manage it in such a way. We had new accountants where you, you don’t wanna throw anyone under the bus. You don’t wanna, but you also have to be straightforward and explain what happened. So I think that’s great advice on the balance sheet side is to, to keep an eye on that. Otherwise, it’s only a matter of time till it bites you. It’s not an, it’s not if it bites you, I really think it’s a, when it bites you, if you don’t pay attention,
Robin Kiziak:
It don’t come out in the wass. I say yes.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Any, maybe any experience you’ve had there where you’ve had a really big surprise or maybe found something on the balance sheet that you’re able to manage by looking at, you know, kind of prepaids and accruals and all that first
Robin Kiziak:
It, it wouldn’t, it, one of our roles we, we used to do a a we had to write off a lot of when we, when we had equipment coming back, we had to write off a lot of this equipment because it couldn’t be used. But they were using a, a really old price list as to, as the basis as to writing this, this, this equipment off. So I think it was like seven, eight years out of date. And I realized that, you know, it just seemed wrong that we were using it, but it was just one of those things that now we’ve always done it this way, so we’ll keep doing it that way. And, and it fell to me to go, this doesn’t look right. And it was one of the roles where I wasn’t in, in involved with the balance sheet.
So I was going to the central accounting, there’s a problem here because I’ve spotted that we’re using this out of date price list. And yeah, I think again, it came back to, you know, because I built that relationship to begin with, I could, I could have that conversation and it wasn’t, you know, it was bad, but it was, wasn’t as as bad as it could have been perhaps. So, yeah. So there’s, it’s, it’s always, if you can get the information out in the open as far as fast as possible, it’s always the best way to approach it. I’ve found
Paul Barnhurst:
A hundred percent agree. Just don’t, don’t hide bad news. Yeah. It, it never is gonna work out in your favor.
Robin Kiziak:
Yes. Yeah, exactly. That it,
Paul Barnhurst:
It it, everybody just wants it to be out on the table. As difficult as the conversation is, it allows you to address it and move forward, which I think is critical.
Robin Kiziak:
Yes, absolutely. Right.
Paul Barnhurst:
So now we’re moving on to the section where we ask people some standard questions. So we have a few fun ones for you. And there’s one other I’ll mix in here. But first, can you describe a time you have experienced a failure at work and what you learn from that? And the reason we like to ask that question is, I’m a big believer that failures are just learning experiences. They’re of an opportunity to grow. So maybe talk about one of those at work that, you know, helped you grow.
Robin Kiziak:
I, I think probably the, the classic one that would probably all experienced is sort of putting a posted a journal the wrong way round. So yeah, so exactly back when I used to post journals a lot. Yeah. So it posted the wrong way round. And you look at it and you look at the numbers, you expect them to be one way and, and they’re not. And the numbers are all skewed and there’s that sort of panic of what the heck has gone wrong here, what have I done? Or what has someone else done is obviously where you normally jump to. And then when you realize, you know, you do that sort of best Homer Simpson impression, you know, don’t so yeah, so I think it’s one of those where, where especially when you, you sort of got that pressure of month end, you’ve gotta close the books, oh, I’ve just gotta do this last journal.
When everything’s done, you put it in and it doesn’t look anything like you expect it to look like. It’s like, oh, what has gone wrong? But yeah, I think from that, yeah, it’s very much looking at the debits and credits and making sure before you post anything, you know, what you expect it to look like in your numbers. Make sure it does it that way. So yeah, I think that’s probably one of the, the biggest ones. It’s probably a classic example, but it’s just like, yeah, you don’t wanna get that wrong. ’cause Then yeah, everyone looks at, you, say you posted a journal, everyone looks at numbers, runs the reports, and it’s not right at all. And then it comes back to you and Oh, what So yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah, I I’ve posted more than one journal wrong, and I remember it was like we had to finish everything by work day five for all the journal entries. I think the cutoff was like the end of work day four, and it was literally the 4th of July. And I’m talking with somebody in Australia and you know, 4th of July is a holiday in the US and hey want me to send in the century and I send it. And we had already been told, you know, don’t hold anything back. We need to make sure we hit our numbers this quarter from corporate, you know, if you have any opportunity that you can bring into the P&L, you know, bring it forward. And of course I do this 400,000 wrong way entry. It was supposed to be a benefit to us. And I booked it the other way. Still remember having to explain is we just barely missed our numbers to the general manager that Yep. It wasn’t over a million dollars. And by the time we recognized it, it was too small to do anything about it till next, next month. And I was just like,
Robin Kiziak:
<Laugh>.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Shit. So I, I learned that when the hard way is I’m with this, you know, senior VP explaining it and he, he was good about it, you know, they were nice about it. I probably beat myself up a lot more than they beat me up, but it was one of those where I’m like, did I just do that?
Robin Kiziak:
That, that’s always the way, isn’t it? Yeah. They, they people are, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got empathy, they understand what, what happens, but yeah, you beat yourself up and yeah. That, so it’s 10 sometimes worse.
Paul Barnhurst:
I, I tend to agree. It often is. So next question here. This is again, one we like to ask everybody, something unique about you that you can share with our audience. Something they wouldn’t find, you know, online or the most people don’t know about you.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, for this, this, I think for me it’s this year I’m trying to get some recognition for myself. So, so I’ve gone a bit selfish a little bit. So I say a couple of months ago I managed to speak on the gen CFO Summit mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that I had. So I enjoyed that. Obviously I’m here today, which is, which is really good. And, and I’ve also I’ve nominated myself for a couple of awards. So so one I’ve, I’ve been shortlisted for which is the Unsung Hero award. And I think by definition, unsung hero, you know, no one’s gonna vote for you because it’s unsung. So Yeah. So, so I thought, I, I thought I’d take, I take it, take it into my own hands and vote for myself. And then there’s a, there’s another one that I’ve also nominate myself for. So we’ll see what comes to that. Let’s just say they’re watching today and they’re impressed. But yeah, I think that’s, so I thought, yeah, this, this year I’ll, I’ll try and get some recognition for myself. So that’s what I’m come for. Well,
Paul Barnhurst:
Good for you. And I hope that works out well for you and you get, you know, recognition you feel like you deserve and it helps you with your career. I know for me, I definitely over the last few years have made a concerted effort to be speaking more and be out there visually, and it’s been good for me, you know, it’s definitely helped me so I can, I can totally understand that. One next one I’m gonna ask you before we go to our last couple questions, favorite pun, this doesn’t have to be a finance joke, but you have a favorite, favorite dad joke or favorite pun you can share with us?
Robin Kiziak:
Oh, now, now you’re asking I think, I think it’s what I’ve posted on LinkedIn a couple of times actually. But I do, I do enjoy it as so around when it was take your child to work day. So, I took my son, he was five years old and, and he’s enjoy looking around work, and then he he starts crying and everyone gathers around and said, what’s wrong? He said, oh daddy, where’s all the clowns? You said you worked with?. So I feel that’s, that’s, that’s what I enjoy.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. I I’m not surprised that’s the one you said. I think I’ve seen that one before. Yep. Where’s all the clowns I work with? Gotta be careful what you say around the kids.
Robin Kiziak:
No, absolutely. <Laugh> Yes, <laugh>,
Paul Barnhurst:
Because they, they think about it differently than we do. No doubt about that. Yeah, I could see that probably happening to somebody at some point, right?
Robin Kiziak:
Oh, I’m sure it has. I’m sure it has.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. In some form or another like that <laugh>
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, it’d probably be quite difficult to sort of get, get, get over it, but Yeah. Yeah. It’s yeah, children, children, I think they, they educate us as much as we educate them, so.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. Yep. The one joke I’ve heard is, you know, the girl goes to church with the dad and walks up to the, you know, the pastor or the, the minister of the church and hands him some money and goes, this is for you. And he goes, no, you mean this is for God? He’s like, no, I mean, this is for you. My dad says that you’re the poorest leader we’ve ever had.
Robin Kiziak:
<Laugh>. Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
You know,
Robin Kiziak:
Type of idea that’s outside. That’s the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
All right. Microsoft Excel, think everybody in finance has spent many an hour there. So what’s your favorite thing about Excel formula function feature? What do you like?
Robin Kiziak:
Well, I’ve obviously watched the podcast before, so Yeah, so I, so I knew this one was coming. I think for me, you know, there’s obviously there’s lots of really useful things on Excel. I know you are a big advocate of Excel and, you know, it is a fantastic tool. I think for me, from a, from a purely aesthetic point of view, I, I, I really enjoy IF Error. So, you know, no one long wants to look at a screen full of, you know, hash refs. So going at it from a presentation point of view, I think, yeah, if error is, is probably up there as just to make things look nice,
Paul Barnhurst:
<Laugh>, that that is a great one to make ’em look like. Do you remember the old is error where you had to combine it with IF
Robin Kiziak:
Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From back in the day, definitely. Yeah.
Paul Barnhurst:
I came in on the tail end of that. I think they just released kind of if error when I really started using Excel a lot. I’d been in my career a while, but the first few years I wasn’t really using Excel before I switched to finance. And so I remember that the other, have you seen a lot of the newer formulas are coming up with now? Xlookupp is one and some of the others have an optional variable where you can just tell it what to do if it doesn’t find anything. So you don’t have to wrap it in IF Error. It’s actually just one of the options in the formula. I’ve seen three or four like that now that Excel has, maybe there’s five, but good. I’ve started to see it little more often. That’s really nice because I’m like, I don’t gotta wrap this as a if error. It’s just part of the formula.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, yeah. No, no, that’s good. ’cause Yeah, no, it’s like I say no, you, no one wants to see all those hash refs do they all over the sheet. It just makes it look a lot better.
Paul Barnhurst:
You, you lose credibility. Yeah. Even if all your numbers are right, if people see a lot of hash ref or, you know, poorly formatted files, it just reflects poorly on you.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s it. You don’t wanna get into that discussion around then the numbers are wrong, the numbers are wrong. ’cause It just takes focus on everything else. So yeah,
Paul Barnhurst:
If you’ve come to the point of the meeting where it’s a discussion around whether the numbers are wrong or not, you’ve lost the meeting. Yeah,
Robin Kiziak:
That’s it. Yeah, <laugh>
Paul Barnhurst:
And I’ve, I’ve lost more than one meeting on that subject, so I, I can speak to that from experience. All right. So we have two questions left for you. First is, what advice would you offer to someone starting a career today in FP&A if they were starting out today, what would you tell ’em?
Robin Kiziak:
So assuming they’ve, they’ve, they’ve got all of the, the technical skills to get into that role. I think now we’ve, we’ve talked about a lot of it already. I would suggest, so know, be curious would be, would be one of my first go-tos. So, you know, I don’t think there’s anything as such as a, as a silly question. We’re always learning and you’re learning whatever the answer turns out to be. So, you know, it could be a matter of, we’ve always done things that way. And that’s like the, the worst thing you can hear. So yes, I think you be curious, ask the questions, learn get out in the business, really understand what the business is doing, how it makes money, how you, you are a part of that big business as well. And I think probably from the other side of it, I would say be mpartial.
Give that impartial view and, and be the impartial sounding board, you know, with, no one wants an echo chamber or no one wants, you know, your biased advice. You know, it’s difficult. This is a, a difficult part of the role, but I think yeah, being impartial, you know, if you can share the information that helps your business partner solve their problem, yeah. They’d always want to come back to you. So I think, yeah, that’s probably a, the couple of, of big pieces of advice I would give is, you know, be impartial, be curious, go out and understand what your business is doing.
Paul Barnhurst:
Yeah. So I’d sum that up. I I took away four steps there. Be curious, ask questions, learn your business and be that impartial voice. Yeah. As I, I heard someone say it once, I want someone who can provide dispassionate, hardheaded analysis and what they meant by hardheaded was fact-based. Take the emotion out of it and just tell me what I need to know, good or bad.
Robin Kiziak:
Yeah, no, I say, and yeah, if you can stick to the data, you know, because emotion just adds lots of other problems to it, you know, just stick to that data. Yeah,
Paul Barnhurst:
Agree. So last question. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what’s the best way to do that?
Robin Kiziak:
I’d have to say through LinkedIn. You know, I’m, I’m very active on there. I’ll see you on there all the time. So, yeah, no, I’d say LinkedIn is probably the best place to get a hold of me.
Paul Barnhurst:
I figured that was probably gonna be the answer. That’s how I connected with Robin and how we made this podcast happen was through LinkedIn. So definitely check him out there. He has a lot of great advice and he has a lot of good jokes too. You’ll get a good laugh from time to time from his feed. I know, I do. And so thank you for joining us today and really appreciate having you on the show. Robin, thanks again for being here.
Robin Kiziak:
Thanks for having me. I’ve, I’ve really enjoyed it.